Are warlocks any good in this patch?

[Taalyn]

Mar'gok mythic 2% wipe 5 minutes ago... Warlocks are bad, omfg ;O

Your mages and hunter are bad. /troll.

No but seriously given equal skill mages and hunters should beat warlocks.

[Tommy2er]

Its a 20 man raid consisted of several different classes and their specs, what do you want? Undefeated #1 with 20% before everyone else?

No, I don't set the bar that high.

How about this? You don't call getting beat on DPS by the weakest spell caster in the game evidence that Warlocks are fine. I think that's pretty reasonable. And that's because doing the status quo makes no fucking sense.

[Schmeebs]

Warlocks damage numbers are 'fine'.

The playstyle, however, leads a lot ot be desired.

Destro: Ugh no embers, can't aoe unless there are 6+ targets...
Demo: Fun, but convoluted, work twice as hard as destro for the same dps. A blast on Tectus.
Affliction: SBHaunt is an RNG nightmare at times, otherwise kinda boring.

Thats my opinion of warlocks at the moment.

[Darkvolcos]

Need to be a skilled player to play on par with the rest on the community.

[Nofo]

all i gotta say is

#Maldvia

[Gaidax]

It's ok, if you are looking for faceroll, you better look at some other classes, though.

[Nofo]

It's ok, if you are looking for faceroll, you better look at some other classes, though.

ifu wanna face roll go dk

[Xandy]

According to the developers we're "good."

However they don't mention that we have zero raid utility and that you also have to be really good in order to be just, "good." It can be a very rewarding experience, and it can also be a frustrating one if you miss opportunities. Our resource generation is a pretty big problem on single target and even multi-target in cases, low stats makes it worse; multi-targetting is our thing. We excel on fights like Bracken, Imp, Tectus, etc. but at low gear levels expect to suck.

Warlocks are fun, challenging, frustrating and rewarding all at the same time.

[Charge me Doctor]

Mages and Boomkins would like to have a word with you

http://www.worldoflogs.com/ranking/eu-us/highmaul/dps/

The only reason they are good because of blink. Druids and Mages are only classes with OPed ability, mages even have two stacks of it

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According to the developers we're "good."

However they don't mention that we have zero raid utility and that you also have to be really good in order to be just, "good." It can be a very rewarding experience, and it can also be a frustrating one if you miss opportunities. Our resource generation is a pretty big problem on single target and even multi-target in cases, low stats makes it worse; multi-targetting is our thing. We excel on fights like Bracken, Imp, Tectus, etc. but at low gear levels expect to suck.

Warlocks are fun, challenging, frustrating and rewarding all at the same time.

What raid utility are you talking about? Healing? Battle ress? CC? Major CDs?
Say please what Utility other classes have, and should Warlocks bring exact same thing, or should new raid-wide short-duration buffs be implemented just to please you?

Ember generation sucks tho, i agree on that

[Xandy]

What raid utility are you talking about? Healing? Battle ress? CC? Major CDs?
Say please what Utility other classes have, and should Warlocks bring exact same thing, or should new raid-wide short-duration buffs be implemented just to please you?t

I don't consider any of those things raid utility since they are so shitty. What healing? Soulstone is meh now. What CC? What major CDs? What are you talking about?

[Durantye]

The only reason they are good because of blink. Druids and Mages are only classes with OPed ability, mages even have two stacks of it

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What raid utility are you talking about? Healing? Battle ress? CC? Major CDs?
Say please what Utility other classes have, and should Warlocks bring exact same thing, or should new raid-wide short-duration buffs be implemented just to please you?

Ember generation sucks tho, i agree on that

We shouldn't bring the 'same' utility but we should bring the same 'level' of utility, which we just plain don't unfortunately. Ember gen would be perfectly fine with the return of RoF.

All warlocks need is RoF un-nerfed and some utility changes.

[Charge me Doctor]

I don't consider any of those things raid utility since they are so shitty. What healing? Soulstone is meh now. What CC? What major CDs? What are you talking about?

I ask you what do you want when you talk about raid utility. Warlocks already provide free off-cd health potions, common buffs, some common mitigation (in form of self healing/shields/damage reduction), battle resurrection, what do you want? Bloodlust? We really need all classes to have bloodlust? Or maybe make a new raid-wide short-termed buff, say, Deepscraving, which increases damage output of raid by flat 50k per hit?
Creating "utility" out of nothing just to please you won't happen and shouldn't happen, you don't bring more or less of utility than other classes. Tho, some classes bring decent off healing, but they often have to sacrifice something for it. I don't get you point, what utility you would be satisfied with?

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We shouldn't bring the 'same' utility but we should bring the same 'level' of utility, which we just plain don't unfortunately. Ember gen would be perfectly fine with the return of RoF.

All warlocks need is RoF un-nerfed and some utility changes.

No, you shouldn't being the same "level" of utility, they tried this in WotLK and people called it "homogenization".

RoF was stupid, just like death and decay of unholy DKs. They did a good thing - removed its ember generation, but they didn't compensated for it. I don't really know what to think about it, because it was plain stupid to rely on AoE ability to get resource generation, but now you stuck without this ability to generate resource, giving passive ember generation will make it more boring, making new spell just to click it once per 10 seconds to increase generation is stupid too. I, personally, don't see a solution here, you either have to stick with this stupid rate of generation, or wait until they implement something decent in its place.

Even after this nerf, destro warlocks don't look bad numbers-wise in all encounters

[Durantye]

I ask you what do you want when you talk about raid utility. Warlocks already provide free off-cd health potions, common buffs, some common mitigation (in form of self healing/shields/damage reduction), battle resurrection, what do you want? Bloodlust? We really need all classes to have bloodlust? Or maybe make a new raid-wide short-termed buff, say, Deepscraving, which increases damage output of raid by flat 50k per hit?
Creating "utility" out of nothing just to please you won't happen and shouldn't happen, you don't bring more or less of utility than other classes. Tho, some classes bring decent off healing, but they often have to sacrifice something for it. I don't get you point, what utility you would be satisfied with?

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No, you shouldn't being the same "level" of utility, they tried this in WotLK and people called it "homogenization".

RoF was stupid, just like death and decay of unholy DKs. They did a good thing - removed its ember generation, but they didn't compensated for it. I don't really know what to think about it, because it was plain stupid to rely on AoE ability to get resource generation, but now you stuck without this ability to generate resource, giving passive ember generation will make it more boring, making new spell just to click it once per 10 seconds to increase generation is stupid too. I, personally, don't see a solution here, you either have to stick with this stupid rate of generation, or wait until they implement something decent in its place.

RoF would have been FINE with a slight dmg nerf, it wasn't OP in 5.4 it wasn't OP in 5.2 it wasn't OP in 5.1 and it effectively did the same exact shit... Suddenly in WoD it is OP? Compared to what? The ability to spam ice lance with Frozen orb? Frozen orb generates ice lance procs and it is an aoe ability...

Calling RoF nerf a good thing is nothing short of ignorance, should it have been nerfed? Yes it did too much DMG it could've been solved with a damage nerf (not as drastic as 60% though, holy fuck)

Yes we should bring the same level of utility or nobody should bring that utility. No one calls balanced DPS bad, infact they scream for it, I can't believe you actually believe classes shouldn't ALL offer something to a raid group outside it's damage, if warlocks had a dps advantage that would be one thing, but we offer no utility and the same damage. How is that fair?

[Charge me Doctor]

RoF would have been FINE with a slight dmg nerf, it wasn't OP in 5.4 it wasn't OP in 5.2 it wasn't OP in 5.1 and it effectively did the same exact shit... Suddenly in WoD it is OP? Compared to what? The ability to spam ice lance with Frozen orb? Frozen orb generates ice lance procs and it is an aoe ability...

Calling RoF nerf a good thing is nothing short of ignorance, should it have been nerfed? Yes it did too much DMG it could've been solved with a damage nerf (not as drastic as 60% though, holy fuck)

Yes we should bring the same level of utility or nobody should bring that utility. No one calls balanced DPS bad, infact they scream for it, I can't believe you actually believe classes shouldn't ALL offer something to a raid group outside it's damage, if warlocks had a dps advantage that would be one thing, but we offer no utility and the same damage. How is that fair?

It's not OPed, it's stupid by its design, that you rely on AoE ability to generate resources. It didn't needed the dmg nerf, it needed resource generation to be removed/replaced and compensated with something. Or, if it won't have significant impact, remove it completely, because you shouldn't have 1 cookie cutter spec that can do good (read: not "fine, but "good") in all encounters (which Destro really was).

I see two perfect reasons to remove ember generation from RoF, one being "no damage on the move" new blizzard fab, other being "relying on AoE ability to do single target damage is stupid", which is purely my opinion, and i hope unholy DKs will get same treatment with their D&D.

Also i see two perfect reasons against it, one being lack of ember generation for AoE (you often stuck with casting single target spell even when there is hundreds of mobs around), other being extreme control of your resources, that's where "it's hard to play this class" kicks in, you have ti know perfect timing where you need ALL your embers to have maximum output, if you don't do that, you end without embers when adds pop out and you can't fire and brimstone them.

Also orb is 1 minute CD that deals same damage as RoF and used only as ice lance generator. Also fuck moving monsters.

And again, WHAT UTILITY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! SHIELDS?! HEALZ?! RAID CDZ?!

[Deleted]

Mar'gok mythic 2% wipe 5 minutes ago... Warlocks are bad, omfg ;O

Mar'gok has to be the most biased fight for warlocks, ever. Or for Destruction rather and yet he doesn't top the dps charts. See what I'm getting at?

[Xandy]

I ask you what do you want when you talk about raid utility.

Anything but nothing

[Charge me Doctor]

Anything but nothing

You do have self-heal/shields/mitigation, free off-cd potions, battle ress, it's objectively not nothing, if you personally want more and don't enjoy what warlocks have, then it's your problem, try other classes then

[Durantye]

It's not OPed, it's stupid by its design, that you rely on AoE ability to generate resources. It didn't needed the dmg nerf, it needed resource generation to be removed/replaced and compensated with something. Or, if it won't have significant impact, remove it completely, because you shouldn't have 1 cookie cutter spec that can do good (read: not "fine, but "good") in all encounters (which Destro really was).

I see two perfect reasons to remove ember generation from RoF, one being "no damage on the move" new blizzard fab, other being "relying on AoE ability to do single target damage is stupid", which is purely my opinion, and i hope unholy DKs will get same treatment with their D&D.

Also i see two perfect reasons against it, one being lack of ember generation for AoE (you often stuck with casting single target spell even when there is hundreds of mobs around), other being extreme control of your resources, that's where "it's hard to play this class" kicks in, you have ti know perfect timing where you need ALL your embers to have maximum output, if you don't do that, you end without embers when adds pop out and you can't fire and brimstone them.

Also orb is 1 minute CD that deals same damage as RoF and used only as ice lance generator. Also fuck moving monsters.

And again, WHAT UTILITY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! SHIELDS?! HEALZ?! RAID CDZ?!

Stupid by its design is completely your opinion, it is an iconic spell for warlocks. It was perfectly fine because we rely on our resources to do aoe, naturally we need an ability to increase our resource generation during aoe.

No damage on the move I agree it did do a bit too much damage for an instant, I would be fine with making it uncastable during movement or even a cast time if it was required. Though I seriously doubt this 'D&D' purge is going to happen because they have an entire tier around talents that are essentially aoes that will be used in single target otherwise their 100 talents are BS.

There is no skill in FnB, there never has been and there never will, do not mistake resource bottle necking with it requiring skill to use FnB now, it simply isn't true.

RoF is literally not even worth casting outside of movement now and the only reason it is cast during movement is because that is all we have. (which is fine we don't need more mobility) so I fail to see how you are okay with frozen orb but not Rain of fire, they both have pros and cons and accomplish the exact same thing except frozen orb hits far harder and has much better synergy compared to rof post nerf (the only time RoF met the dmg of frozen orb was when it had MF)

DK-anti-magic zone, shaman - ancestral guidance, mage - amp magic, shadow priest - VE, Hunters - Fox and ability to do bitch jobs well, druids - their 90 talent allows them to choose one of 3 spells, Rogues - Smoke bomb, paladin - multiple hand spells, healing cds from talents, Warrior - rallying cry, Monks - not much i can think of, Warlocks - Gateway that applies a universal debuff removing the usefulness of another warlock to move a short distance.

One of these things is not like the other.

[Charge me Doctor]

Stupid by its design is completely your opinion, it is an iconic spell for warlocks. It was perfectly fine because we rely on our resources to do aoe, naturally we need an ability to increase our resource generation during aoe.

No damage on the move I agree it did do a bit too much damage for an instant, I would be fine with making it uncastable during movement or even a cast time if it was required. Though I seriously doubt this 'D&D' purge is going to happen because they have an entire tier around talents that are essentially aoes that will be used in single target otherwise their 100 talents are BS.

There is no skill in FnB, there never has been and there never will, do not mistake resource bottle necking with it requiring skill to use FnB now, it simply isn't true.

RoF is literally not even worth casting outside of movement now and the only reason it is cast during movement is because that is all we have. (which is fine we don't need more mobility) so I fail to see how you are okay with frozen orb but not Rain of fire, they both have pros and cons and accomplish the exact same thing except frozen orb hits far harder and has much better synergy compared to rof post nerf (the only time RoF met the dmg of frozen orb was when it had MF)

DK-anti-magic zone, shaman - ancestral guidance, mage - amp magic, shadow priest - VE, Hunters - Fox and ability to do bitch jobs well, druids - their 90 talent allows them to choose one of 3 spells, Rogues - Smoke bomb, paladin - multiple hand spells, healing cds from talents, Warrior - rallying cry, Monks - not much i can think of, Warlocks - Gateway that applies a universal debuff removing the usefulness of another warlock to move a short distance.

One of these things is not like the other.

I was thinking more about fixating D&D on single target, not about removal of it.

There is no skill in FnB and i never said that there is, you just click it when you need to do AoE damage, i was talking primarily about stocking up resources and burning them in appropriate time (see: short-timed planned AoE phases). That's why i said "it's hard to play this class", not "it's hard to use FnB".

And why exactly it should be casted outside of movement and AoE? It's no cost glorified DoT effect, it's basically same as old corruption for destro warlocks, it does shitty damage and you use it when you need AoE or have nothing better to do. I'm OK with both of them, and you misinterpreted resources for frost mage and destro warlock (FoF proc is not a resource, it's proc, and frost mage does damage only when he has these procs), they don't accomplish exact same thing (FoF procs are pure random, frost mage needs at least something to rely on), and frost orb to hit harder (which is arguable, it deals same damage as RoF on immolated target, around 35% of SP iirc) pays 1 minute cooldown.

DK-anti-magic zone, shaman - ancestral guidance, mage - amp magic, shadow priest - VE, Hunters - Fox and ability to do bitch jobs well, druids - their 90 talent allows them to choose one of 3 spells, Rogues - Smoke bomb, paladin - multiple hand spells, healing cds from talents, Warrior - rallying cry, Monks - not much i can think of, Warlocks - Free healing potions off CD of general potions (Basically same shit as anti-magic zone, ancestral guidance, amp magic and VE)

[Durantye]

I was thinking more about fixating D&D on single target, not about removal of it.

There is no skill in FnB and i never said that there is, you just click it when you need to do AoE damage, i was talking primarily about stocking up resources and burning them in appropriate time (see: short-timed planned AoE phases). That's why i said "it's hard to play this class", not "it's hard to use FnB".

And why exactly it should be casted outside of movement and AoE? It's no cost glorified DoT effect, it's basically same as old corruption for destro warlocks, it does shitty damage and you use it when you need AoE or have nothing better to do. I'm OK with both of them, and you misinterpreted resources for frost mage and destro warlock (FoF proc is not a resource, it's proc, and frost mage does damage only when he has these procs), they don't accomplish exact same thing (FoF procs are pure random, frost mage needs at least something to rely on), and frost orb to hit harder (which is arguable, it deals same damage as RoF on immolated target, around 35% of SP iirc) pays 1 minute cooldown.

DK-anti-magic zone, shaman - ancestral guidance, mage - amp magic, shadow priest - VE, Hunters - Fox and ability to do bitch jobs well, druids - their 90 talent allows them to choose one of 3 spells, Rogues - Smoke bomb, paladin - multiple hand spells, healing cds from talents, Warrior - rallying cry, Monks - not much i can think of, Warlocks - Free healing potions off CD of general potions (Basically same shit as anti-magic zone, ancestral guidance, amp magic and VE)

Except healthstones ARE on the same cd (AND DO LESS HEALING) as healing tonics and can also only be used once per fight, are you seriously telling me you didn't know this? This was the biggest controversy ever when it was discovered on Beta.

It shouldn't be used on ST in my opinion, but destroying a part of a class because there is a slight inconvenience in another part does not equal the same consequence. The use of ST was conveniently not a problem in 5.4 (wondrous how they managed that without basically removing it as a spell).

FnB isn't about timing either, you can get 2 casts off (maybe) if you cast it on 4-5 targets that is ridiculous, no other class sacrifices as much as a destro lock for aoe. We take an entire minute on average to fill 4 embers and they are gone from 2-3 casts in an aoe situation? That is ridiculous, not design.\

Mages only do damage when they have FoF? How convenient, warlocks only do damage when they have their embers, warlocks need something to force procs to make our aoe not pointless.