Undead Paladins

[Arrashi]

Only if she escapes and leads us into "World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Bitch Queen."

With a plot twist - she goes back in time, and creates a new army....MADE OUT OF LIVING FORSAKEN !!!

[Wildberry]

With a plot twist - she goes back in time, and creates a new army....MADE OUT OF LIVING FORSAKEN !!!

But what's going to power this new Forsaken war machine?

The (Noun) Forsaken... I've got nothing (And that still leaves me with more ideas than Blizzard).

[mickybrighteyes]

Good thing I am not part of the game then

I just believe some classes should be restricted lore wise, like undead paladins. Having one case of a paladin that kept his abilities is just not enough for me. Sounds stupid too, as the light burns all undead who even get touched by it. Let alone use it to it's fullest extent.

as often as they show undead who don't care about their well-being as a stereotype I can see an undead going through with some self mutilation to achieve a goal.

It's probably not a step much past warlock stereotypes (you know... the magic practice that often caries self destruction as a side effect for those who overstep their bounds) and what with all the suicidal undead tropes among forsaken it doesn't seem so far fetched.

[Deleted]

The forsaken consider sylvanas their savior. They wont betray her
Garrosh is a bad comparison

There are forsaken dissenters in game, forsaken culture is not monolithic, there is division. Wrathgate is evidence of that. Anyhow, I'd agree that most forsaken are behind Sylvanas, which would mean that any soceital opposition to her rule would be necessarily counterculture, and perhaps underground. Historically, I've always thought importing the cult of the forgotten shadow from the RPG would be a good vehicle for that kind of story. This thread, though, has changed my mind- a puritanical sect of self-flagellating light worshipping undead bent on a twisted crusade that would see them seek an unattainable redemption through sacred pain is a fucking cool idea. Also, it's the sort of group that wouldn't enjoy mainstream support or popularity, yet would serve as a rallying point for sylvano-skeptics.

The children of the weeping rose would arise in reaction to the Banshee Queen's graduation to necromancy in Silverpine (raising fallen foes with the Val'kyr). Steadfast in the belief that undeath is an affliction that no mortal soul deserves, the children of the weeping rose formed the Mendicants Hospitalier, a paramilitary order of dissident forsaken patriots pledged to excruciating service to the light. Subject to a vow of poverty, and a rigorously ascetic lifestyle, these soiled crusaders seek to spread the word of another way- a path of humility in the face of oblivion. They roam northern lordaeron, dispensing acts of mercy and charity upon it's wretched denizens, spreading their dark gospel.

Above all else, the children of the weeping rose oppose that which they call 'taint' - the supernatural corruption inevitably afflicted upon a mortal soul by the curse of undeath. Sooner or later (sooner, if not actively managed), every undead being succumbs to the taint: the malignant effect the unholy energies animating them have upon their twisted mortal souls. Undead that have succumbed to taint lose the last remnants of their mortal morality, descending into untold depths of depravity and madness. Putress is a well known example, but in truth these agents number plenty amongst the ranks of the forsaken. Sadistic and twisted individuals who glean joy only from destruction and ruin. Such it was that the Tirisfalian Inquistion was born; an underground and extralegal sect of weeping rose and mendicant hospitalier radicalists who hunt out the corrupted elements of Forsaken society, ending their misery, and baleful influence.

Although there exists no formal connection between the children of the weeping rose, and the Tirisfalian Inquistion, the affiliation is widely suspected. As such, 'weepers' are subject to discrimination and public ire, when their sympathies are exposed. On the other hand, the Inquistion has attained a mythic status as a caution against unbridled depravity, with many forsaken fearful of attracting their attention by stepping a little too far in the war against the living.

Lady Sylvanas is keenly aware of the threat this movement poses to the Forsaken, and her rule. Calculatedly, she has refrained from stamping light worship out, understanding that this would simply push the children of the weeping rose, and the mendicants hospitalier, underground (where they'd mostly join forces with the Tirisfalian Inquisition). Instead, in a stroke of political genius, she afforded them a seat at Undercity's table, going so far as to build them a church in the apothecarium. By doing so she keeps her enemies close, and unravels the narrative that portrays her rule as antithetical to this rising cult's beliefs. Finally, when the inevitable confrontation occurs, the dark lady has her foe concentrated and close by - one whiff of revolution, and the church leadership can be rounded up and executed.

[Psychotrip]

Tauren "pallys" are just sun druids. BE pallys are based on the Light.

Undead can channel the Light as priests with excruciating pain. A pally actually fills themselves up as a vessel for the Light, this would be way worse.

This.

Just because undead can be holy priests doesn't mean they can be paladins.

A paladin is not just a priest with a hammer. Paladins are people that are literally chosen by the Light through intense meditation and rigorous training. Holy magic itself is just channeling magic through good intentions and positive emotions. That holy magic is interpreted, by humans and draenei, to be "the Light". But almost anyone can cast a holy spell. To be an actual paladin is to become a living vessel of a supernatural semi-sentient force of nature, to completely give yourself up to that force and become its living avatar.

Why can't an undead do that?

Because the Light hates demons and the undead. No one really knows why, and I wont get into the theories here, but the Light is just incompatible with those who subvert the natural forces of life and death. The Light would never "choose" a forsaken. Even it did, an undead holy priest goes through excrutiating pain every time he or she casts a spell. They suddenly feel the pain of their rotting flesh and the maggots eating away at their stomachs. Imagine how debilitating this would be for a theoretical undead paladin, who becomes a vessel for the Light.

[Deleted]

...Because the Light hates demons and the undead. No one really knows why...

My best guess is that the 'unholy' magic that animates them has some kind of affiliation with shadow, the antithesis of light. Lorewise the scourge has it's origins in what was essentially a Burning Legion side project to take over azeroth. That, along with the fact that the light has an innate potency against fel and undead beings (e.g. holy wrath), suggests a strong link binding fel and unholy magic, perhaps to the point that unholy is a subset of fel purposed toward undeath. That the schism that divided the eredar into the light-worshipping draenei and the burning legion also hints at a shadow-affiliation with the burning legion. We also know that Sargeras kind of went crazy, madness is also associated heavily with shadow magic- I like to think that beneath the flickering flames of fel power beats a shadowy heart. It would explain a lot.

Anyhow, as to the rest of your analysis; it all makes sense, in an a priori kind of way, except it is empirically contradicted by an in-game example of an undead paladin. This suggests that an undead paladin isn't antithetical or impossible, so much as improbable or implausible. In turn, that means writing new lore to build a basis for undead paladins wouldn't necessarily conflict with established lore.

[Lynneiah]

Are we forgetting that the Undead have no sense of morality? The Light only comes to those who believe their actions are good, but to an Undead, I very much doubt the concept of 'good' has any meaning whatsoever?

Also, an Undead Paladin wouldn't just be 'mutilation'. It'd be self-destruction. The only way it would be able to work in-game realistically is if every ability caused the character to take damage. Including heals. So, there's that.

[Deleted]

Paladins have a stronger connection to the light then priests does, this means that if an undead would try and use the light as strongly as a paladin does then he would be destroyed almost instantly, while an undead priest channels the light in another way that makes it possible for them to use it under short periods of time if i am not mistaken (I am not 100% sure of this but i think i can recall that i have seen this in some article some time ago when i read about paladins)

[Vakna]

The light does not abandon it's champions.

Unfortunately in this case, the champion would very much prefer it too.

[Deleted]

The order of Forsaken Paladins should be called the Repentant Order.

They who repent for what they are, wielding the light even though it hurts them.

There is something really interesting in a warrior who is facing excruciating pain everytime he has to use his abilities to fight. That would force the Forsaken Paladins to think carefully before engaging, kinda like real paladins, who dont really like fighting, except when it is to protect the weak.

[Vakna]

The order of Forsaken Paladins should be called the Repentant Order.

They who repent for what they are, wielding the light even though it hurts them.

There is something really interesting in a warrior who is facing excruciating pain everytime he has to use his abilities to fight. That would force the Forsaken Paladins to think carefully before engaging, kinda like real paladins, who dont really like fighting, except when it is to protect the weak.

Thing is priests and paladins work with the light very differently, priests channel it, paladins carry it. So if it causes an undead priest excruciating pain to channel the light, imagine what it would do to a paladin.

[Deleted]

Thing is priests and paladins work with the light very differently, priests channel it, paladins carry it. So if it causes an undead priest excruciating pain to channel the light, imagine what it would do to a paladin.

Carrying something that causes you excruciating pain on your own accord is really compelling lore twist in my eyes. They deliberately chose to live in eternal pain to repay for what they are, it is a sacrifice they are willing to make. Hence the Light is willing to help them. I cannot help but find this very badass.

Now, on the other hand, Undead shouldn't really feel pain, since they are, well, dead, nerves dont work anymore, remember?

[Volibear]

The order of Forsaken Paladins should be called the Repentant Order.

They who repent for what they are, wielding the light even though it hurts them.

There is something really interesting in a warrior who is facing excruciating pain everytime he has to use his abilities to fight. That would force the Forsaken Paladins to think carefully before engaging, kinda like real paladins, who dont really like fighting, except when it is to protect the weak.

Instead of mana, Undead Paladins could use %health to cast their abilities!

[Deleted]

Instead of mana, Undead Paladins could use %health to cast their abilities!

When Undead characters get healed by the holy light ingame nobody bats an eye, if your logic is true that would have to melt their faces off.

[Kallisto]

When Undead characters get healed by the holy light ingame nobody bats an eye, if your logic is true that would have to melt their faces off.

If forsaken could not be healed by light based heals in game they would never be taken to pvp or raids. They would be instantly kicked from 5 man dungeons and lfrs. These are in game mechanics that should not be confused with lore.

[Asonarth]

Really good video that explains the light and how its possible to use as undead / be healed as a dk tank / undead tank

http://youtu.be/e1GZBEGSfCo

[Rarespawn2012]

Wow this thread is still going strong. The lorenerd in me disagrees with the idea of an undead paladin, however my inner geek loves the idea.

[FuxieDK]

If forsaken could not be healed by light based heals in game they would never be taken to pvp or raids. They would be instantly kicked from 5 man dungeons and lfrs. These are in game mechanics that should not be confused with lore.

Well.. The majority of healing is nature-base..

[keishton]

Sir zereik is an undead paladin in naxxaramus http://www.wowwiki.com/Sir_Zeliek

[Verdugo]

Sir zereik is an undead paladin in naxxaramus http://www.wowwiki.com/Sir_Zeliek

Berry is a ghost cow in Nethurstorm http://www.wowwiki.com/Bessy