Balance 4pT17 napkincraft

[unlightable]

Ok, we all love stacking cooldowns. I'm talking CA with Incarnation here (and Berserk for the trolls), supplemented with the potion.

I'm pretty sure that 2*n unstacked CA is actually worse than n stacked ones. Anyone would car to double-check?

Napkin math:

1. Assume basic X dps. So in 6m fight you do 360*X damage, 9m - 540*X and so on.

2. CA uptime is 15 seconds on 3m cd, and it gives you 20% boost. But it also "locks" you on an eclipse peak, so lets make it 30%, good enough assumption for the napkin.
So 1 cycle would total to (180 - 15)X + 15 * 1.3X = 184,5X, total of 2.5% damage boost.

3. Incarnation is 15% buff on a 30/180s, same 2.5%.

4. Potion gives 1k int for 25s. Assuming you would have around 5k int buffed when you get your T17 - thats a 20% buff. And you never use it "on cd", you always stack it up.

5. Berserk is 15% haste for 10s, we can guess thats 15% dmg for casters straight up. Alone its just a pitiful 0.83%.

6. Now lets stack them up. All of them every 3 minutes.
0-10s: 10 * 1.3*1.15*1.2*1.15 = 20.63X (~200% dps)
10-15s: 5 * 1.3*1.15*1.2 = 8.97X (~180% dps)
15-25s: 10 * 1.15*1.2 = 13.8X (~138% dps)
25-30s: 5 * 1.2 = 6X (~120% dps)
30-180: 150X (no-cd-up dps)
total: 199.4X or 10,7% total damage boost every 3 min (for 2 cycles due to potion, at least). This bonus of course depends on a fight length (3:30 fight would benefit from 2 cycles w/o a dropdown and stuff), but that doesn't affect further thoughts.

7. Lets assume that you can't stack CA anymore. I mean on-pull you still gona get all this juicy numbers, but at 3:00 you would loose your 30%.
In this case, second cycle will be (15.87+20.7+6+150)X=192.57X w/o CA at all. Factoring in CA at 1.5 of its uptime (that messes up our stacking) we get 192.57X-22.5X+22.5*1.3X=199.32x. Third and (god forbit) fourth will be the same, exluding potion benefits.
Thats actually WORSE (although only marginaly) than NO T17P4 AT ALL. Even at 2x the uptime, if you don't stack CA with everything else, you will get
201.57X of damage dealt, thats practically nothing (1.1%) comparing to basic 3m stacked up. 3x uptime gives you a nice 3.3% boost compared to basic 3m CA, but is it possible to increase it so high? See below.

so, if you can't stack CA, 4pT17 is USELESS (if not harmful).

8. Question is, can you stack it? It reads:
"Wrath and Starfire casts reduce the cooldown of Celestial Alignment by 3 sec."
So you need to reduce it's cd either by a) 1.5m (90 sec, 30 casts) in the timespan of 3m-1.5m=90 sec to make every 2nd cast stack, or by b) 2m (40casts) in the timespan of 1m.

Picking some random log from my recent not-so-much-movement kill ( https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=48 ) I can assume that for every 6 starfires you would cast 5 wraths and around 6GCD's would be spent on dot's/SS's/starfall's/misc.

offnote: 2pT17 reads "Reduces the cast time of Wrath and Starfire by 12%." but I can imagine that its not entirely true. There were occasions when bonuses like that actually increased haste for that spell by 12%, not reduced cast time. And thats is entirely different math. Besides, 12% shorter casts means 13.5% more spells cast. Considering starfire/wrath is 40-50% of all damage done, that is like 5-7% dps boost from 2pT17, much more than from 4pT17 (see below). But I hope I'm wrong with this particular one...

Assuming 0 haste, 1/2 of starfires being buffed by SS having 0.8 cast time (Euphoria) and 2pT17 giving starfire/wrath another 0.88 cast time we get:
3 * 3s * 0.8 * 0.88 + 3 * 3s * 0.88 + 5 * 2s * 0.88 + 6 * 1.5s = 6.336+7.92+8.8 = 23.08s spent on "average rotation" that slices (6 + 5) *3s off CA. Thats pre-haste. Assuming 20% haste (buffed, higher ilvl, berserk, trinket procs, looks not that off) thats 23.08 / 1.2 = 19.23.
Each 19.23 seconds spent doing "average stuff" reduces CA cooldown by 33sec or every 1s reduces CD by 1.716s. Lets find out when will CA get off cooldown having those averages:
t = 180 - t * 1.716
t = 180 / (1 + 1.716) = 66.2s

So actual CA cooldown on that paricular fight would be 66s. That makes option a) possible and even easily achievable with no effort. Great news! 4pT17 gives me a nice boost of 1 free CA (2.2% compared to basic 1 CA every 3m). Not that much, but still a boost.

Option b) is out of reach, sadly. But you would need "just" another 20% haste to make it possible too. This seems unreachable by secondary stats alone, but bloodlust, fight mechanics and such can actually push it over.

Another thing to consider is that you can delay your 3m cd cycle by 10-20sec and receive full benefit from 2 "free" CA. This can be good or bad thing: if you can do that w/o loosing another cycle before the boss dies, you win. Otherwise - you loose, badly.


TLDR: 4pT17 grants you free CA every 3m, not very exciting, considering that its around 2% (4% if you can estimate kill-time very well) damage boost, while 2pT17 looks like 5-7%.

[Deleted]

From my beta testing last summer I used to get CA down to a range between 1:40 to 2:00 (This was from Foundry testing generally), can easily get it down to 1:30 if you do close to 0 movement.

It will really depend on the fight, if you're gonna Starfall alot and take Incarnation or if you're doing a Butcher type of fight and go with Soul of the Forest.

[xtramuscle]

Yeah I remember when I was reading over the 2/4 set a couple of weeks ago I napkin mathed it out that it should be pretty standard to be using CA every 90 seconds, stacking every 180 seconds with inc like we do now. Problem is gonna be 120 sec icd trinkets we're stuck with.

[Deleted]

You dont have to reduce the cd by straight up 90 seconds, you dont always throw out your stacked incarnation+CA as soon as they are off cooldown, usually waiting another 20 seconds for CA to come off cd wont do much.

Besides, from beta testing i didnt have a problem reducing the cooldown enough for it to stack with incarnation.

[Deleted]

No it shouldn't be any issues with it at all, you still gain dps by holding off Incarnation worst case scenario. (Never understood the main point with the thread anyhow)

[Deleted]

Dont know what the point of this thread even with "2 minutes trinket" its better to use them on cd without CA and Incarnation if you know that fight will be longer than 4 minutes.