10 years in prison, $266,600 fine, 1,000 lashes for " blasphemy "

[Stelio Kontos]

Take a look at the historian forum on Reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorian...22dark_ages.22

These are real historians that provide sources to their claims. You will hardly see any decent historian that will support this "dark ages" thing, it's a known fact that they didn't real happened.

Also a good article on how the "dark ages" were spread by protestant England in order to insult Catholicism:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/do...sh-reformation

Really good stuff here.

Building off of the previous statement, the Fall of the Western Roman Empire (nominally) in AD 476 is far too often seen as the end of civilization in Europe. The public has conveniently been misinformed that the Roman Empire fell in AD 476, which is completely and totally false. The Byzantine Empire, which was an entire half of the Roman Empire, survived for another thousand years in the East, and for most of that time, was not only a superpower of the Mediterranean, but also made notable strides in the realms of science, technology, philosophy, theology, medicine, and many other fields. This fact is unfairly downplayed because of centuries of Western animosity towards the Byzantines, which is now thankfully being changed by recent scholarship.

The story about how the Muslims were the only ones who "saved" the Greco-Roman texts and rescued Western intellectualism is, for the most part, overplayed. Again, it is conveniently forgotten that it was the Byzantines who originally provided the Muslims with the texts - most notably, when Caliph al-Mamun, in exchange for a ceasefire, requested that the Byzantine Emperor Theophilos provide copies of the greatest Ancient Greek and Roman/Byzantine literary, philosophical, mathematical, and scientific texts. It was throughout the long centuries between the Fall of the West and the Sack of Constantinople that the Byzantines preserved over a million volumes of the works of Antiquity and otherwise at the Pandidakterion and Great Library of Constantinople until the latter was destroyed in 1204 during the events of the Fourth Crusade. Afterwards, due to the establishment of extensive Byzantine trade networks across the Mediterranean in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages, the Italian maritime states (in many cases, Byzantine colonies which gained independence) gained control of many of these works. So, essentially, the Italians already had access to the works of antiquity, before the "reintroduction" of the Arabic versions in the mid 1200s by the Toledo School and others. The claim to fame of the Muslims is that it was their studies of these ancient works that revolutionized mathematics and scientific thought in Western Europe in the late Middle Ages, this may be why they get the credit for "preserving the works of Antiquity", but that doesn't negate the fact that the statement that "they were the only ones who saved intellectualism from the clutches of the European Dark Ages" is incorrect.

The whole "Dark Ages" canard is just there to both give legitimacy to the Protestant kings who came later, and de-legitimize the Byzantine Empire.

[Kuntantee]

Take a look at the historian forum on Reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorian...22dark_ages.22

These are real historians that provide sources to their claims. You will hardly see any decent historian that will support this "dark ages" thing, it's a known fact that they didn't real happened. Even the first universities were founded during the "dark ages"...

Also a good article on how the "dark ages" were spread by protestant England in order to insult Catholicism:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/do...sh-reformation

Fail after fail after fail.

Let me teach you how to discuss.

1) When you make a claim, you provide references
2) When you are asked to provide references, you do not copy or provide link to walls of texts but key points to support your point. The link you provided is too long for me to traverse and find necessary information.
3) When you make a claim, especially stating the claim comes from an authority, make sure you reference a paper with some authorities name on it. Not some garbage document or online newspaper article...

Reference a paper or a book or just don't bother.

[Independent voter]

10 years in prison, $266,600 fine, 1,000 lashes for " blasphemy "

He won't do that again.

[Stelio Kontos]

Fail after fail after fail.

Let me teach you how to discuss.

1) When you make a claim, you provide references
2) When you are asked to provide references, you do not copy or provide link to walls of texts but key points to support your point. The link you provided is too long for me to traverse and find necessary information.
3) When you make a claim, especially stating the claim comes from an authority, make sure you reference a paper with some authorities name on it. Not some garbage document or online newspaper article...

Reference a paper or a book or just don't bother.

He's right on the part with Emperor Theophilus. The Arabs got their texts from the Byzantine Empire. So the theory of a European dark age is rather silly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ma%2...with_Byzantium

Al-Ma'mun's relations with Byzantines are marked by his efforts in the translation of Greek philosophy and science. Al-Ma'mun gathered scholars of many religions at Baghdad, whom he treated magnificently and with tolerance. He sent an emissary to the Byzantine Empire to collect the most famous manuscripts there, and had them translated into Arabic.[7] As part of his peace treaty with the Byzantine Emperor, Al-Ma'mun was to receive a number of Greek manuscripts annually, one of these being Ptolemy's astronomical work, the Almagest.[8]

Lee S. Tesdell, "Greek Rhetoric and Philosophy in Medieval Arabic Culture: The State of the Research," in: Discourses of Power: Grammar and Rhetoric in the Middle Ages, ed. Carol Poster and Richard Utz (Evanston, IL: Northwestern University Press, 1999), pp. 51–58.

Angelo, Joseph (2009). Encyclopedia of Space and Astronomy. p. 78. ISBN 9781438110189.

Those are two of the sources provided in the wiki article.

Constantinople had a massive library before the westerners burned it in 1204, they loaned and copied texts to many neighboring empires, the Arabs were one of them.

That does certainly muddle the "dark age" canard, doesn't it?

[Schuetze]

Fail after fail after fail.

Let me teach you how to discuss.

1) When you make a claim, you provide references
2) When you are asked to provide references, you do not copy or provide link to walls of texts but key points to support your point. The link you provided is too long for me to traverse and find necessary information.
3) When you make a claim, especially stating the claim comes from an authority, make sure you reference a paper with some authorities name on it. Not some garbage document or online newspaper article...

Reference a paper or a book or just don't bother.

I won't bother, because this is a fucking World of Warcraft forum. I provided sources, you either read them and learn something new or you remain ignorant. If you like being spoon-fed that's your own problem.

That's all there is. You can act all fucking smug and superior but it doesn't change the fact that no reputable historian accepts this "dark ages" theory.

[Rennadrel]

Why are we still allies with this nation?

Because they have oil, obviously.

[Kuntantee]

Really good stuff here.

Building off of the previous statement, the Fall of the Western Roman Empire (nominally) in AD 476 is far too often seen as the end of civilization in Europe. The public has conveniently been misinformed that the Roman Empire fell in AD 476, which is completely and totally false. The Byzantine Empire, which was an entire half of the Roman Empire, survived for another thousand years in the East, and for most of that time, was not only a superpower of the Mediterranean, but also made notable strides in the realms of science, technology, philosophy, theology, medicine, and many other fields. This fact is unfairly downplayed because of centuries of Western animosity towards the Byzantines, which is now thankfully being changed by recent scholarship.

The story about how the Muslims were the only ones who "saved" the Greco-Roman texts and rescued Western intellectualism is, for the most part, overplayed. Again, it is conveniently forgotten that it was the Byzantines who originally provided the Muslims with the texts - most notably, when Caliph al-Mamun, in exchange for a ceasefire, requested that the Byzantine Emperor Theophilos provide copies of the greatest Ancient Greek and Roman/Byzantine literary, philosophical, mathematical, and scientific texts. It was throughout the long centuries between the Fall of the West and the Sack of Constantinople that the Byzantines preserved over a million volumes of the works of Antiquity and otherwise at the Pandidakterion and Great Library of Constantinople until the latter was destroyed in 1204 during the events of the Fourth Crusade. Afterwards, due to the establishment of extensive Byzantine trade networks across the Mediterranean in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages, the Italian maritime states (in many cases, Byzantine colonies which gained independence) gained control of many of these works. So, essentially, the Italians already had access to the works of antiquity, before the "reintroduction" of the Arabic versions in the mid 1200s by the Toledo School and others. The claim to fame of the Muslims is that it was their studies of these ancient works that revolutionized mathematics and scientific thought in Western Europe in the late Middle Ages, this may be why they get the credit for "preserving the works of Antiquity", but that doesn't negate the fact that the statement that "they were the only ones who saved intellectualism from the clutches of the European Dark Ages" is incorrect.

The whole "Dark Ages" canard is just there to both give legitimacy to the Protestant kings who came later, and de-legitimize the Byzantine Empire.

I am not sure what kind of academical background you have but this wall of text is wall of opinion. No scholar or scientist make claims without citations.

[Stelio Kontos]

I am not sure what kind of academical background you have but this wall of text is wall of opinion. No scholar or scientist make claims without citations.

I gave you citations, and in not a single course in my history study did a professor use the term "dark ages". Quite the opposite, really.

[Schuetze]

I am not sure what kind of academical background you have but this wall of text is wall of opinion. No scholar or scientist make claims without citations.

You can read the sources in those links.

Are you a scholar or a "le scientist"? So why don't you also provide your sources that the DARK AGES really existed? I think you are the only one in here that still hasn't provided anything.

[Kuntantee]

I won't bother, because this is a fucking World of Warcraft forum. I provided sources, you either read them and learn something new or you remain ignorant. If you like being spoon-fed that's your own problem.

That's all there is. You can act all fucking smug and superior but it doesn't change the fact that no reputable historian accepts this "dark ages" theory.

"spoon fed" That's how science works mate. No one is gonna bother reading walls of texts just to prove you wrong. If you make a statement, you put ONLY necessary information with a reference.

and this is your introduction to science.

[Stelio Kontos]

"spoon fed" That's how science works mate. No one is gonna bother reading walls of texts just to prove you wrong. If you make a statement, you put ONLY necessary information with a reference.

and this is your introduction to science.

Go read post #44

[Schuetze]

"spoon fed" That's how science works mate. No one is gonna bother reading walls of texts just to prove you wrong. If you make a statement, you put ONLY necessary information with a reference.

and this is your introduction to science.

Science? Get real dude.

You are hilarious. It's like I've just me the perfect "le scientist" fedora tipping internet forum persona.

[Deleted]

The religion of peace.

[Kuntantee]

Go read post #44

So dark ages did not exist because The Byzantine Empire engaged in some scholarly events with Arabs?

[Strear]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...y-rallies.html

^ Your own link.

Come on I skimmed the article in like 5 seconds and even I saw that.

Come on OP, at least read the links you post, "the next day" is not early last year, by any stretch of the imagination.

My bad, I guess I wasn't clear :
1 - On sunday, everyone walks agains terrorism after people mocked the prophet on drawings, even the Saudi Arabia ambassador.
2 - Nearly at the same time (on the friday to be precise), a guy receives 50 lashes in Saudi Arabia for " blasphemy " (the link sums up the whole affair)

I wasn't clear and precise enough, I guess some understood the idea, I apologize for the other, even if it saddens me a little that some seem to focus more on the format than on the substance.

[Stelio Kontos]

So dark ages did not exist because The Byzantine Empire engaged in some scholarly events with Arabs?

How can the dark ages engulf Europe when the Greco-Roman Eastern Empire (part of Europe) survived with an unbroken history until 1453 and lent much of the knowledge, medicine, and science that Arabs claim for themselves? I understand its important to your cultural and religious background to believe Islam "civilized" dark age europe, but it's just not true. The West had a political collapse, not a knowledge collapse, and the East had no break or collapse at all until 1204 and the gradual decline of the empire until it was snuffed out in 1453.

[Deleted]

How can the region known as the 'cradle of civilization', end up as a bunch of backward 3rd world religious shitholes? Can't help but feel that religion seriously holds back human development.

[Kuntantee]

How can the dark ages engulf Europe when the Greco-Roman Eastern Empire (part of Europe) survived with an unbroken history until 1453 and lent much of the knowledge, medicine, and science that Arabs claim for themselves? I understand its important to your cultural and religious background to believe Islam "civilized" dark age europe, but it's just not true. The West had a political collapse, not a knowledge collapse, and the East had no break or collapse at all until 1204 and the gradual decline of the empire until it was snuffed out in 1453.

Do you know my cultural and religious background? You are confusing me with yourself.

[Stelio Kontos]

Do you know my cultural and religious background? You are confusing me with yourself.

You're Turkish, that tells me enough. The same way you constantly, passive-aggressively snide me for my background.

Look, you're free to believe what you want, but there is evidence showing the dark age is a myth, and it's no longer considered mainstream history. Fact is, the dark ages weren't that dark, it's just better for the people that came to power after that (Muslims and Protestants) to have that idea floating around.

[Noomz]

He got flogged? Is it dark ages down there?

Pretty much, yes.

- - - Updated - - -

How can the region known as the 'cradle of civilization', end up as a bunch of backward 3rd world religious shitholes? Can't help but feel that religion seriously holds back human development.

Things happened.

Ignorance holds back human development. Ignorance comes in many forms.