Israel is bad, because there is a lot of propaganda in Israel.

[Mormolyce]

An isolated incident doesn't equate to Israeli policy anymore than it does for any other country.

I never get sick of this line of rhetoric.

"Provide examples for your wild allegations!"

"Here's one."

"Isolated incident! Proves nothing!"

Rinse, repeat.

[Nakura Chambers]

Yet you support the alliance that's based almost entirely on that aid being sent to Israel. Sounds like you need to worry more about being able to defend your own positions on this issue than worry about someone else's uneducated opinion.

I don't see where I contradicted myself.

As for limiting civilian deaths and not killing children...

Sounds like they're doing a brilliant job of it.

No matter how careful you are, you're going to end up killing civilians when you bomb an area smaller than 140 miles, housing nearly 2 million people. You're also assuming that Israeli airstrikes are responsible for all of those deaths and not Hamas. Also, it's silly argument altogether, because the objective of the war was to destroy the offensive capabilities of Hamas (underground tunnels, rocket sites, etc.).

[jrf773]

So how does an isolated incident where two US Army Sergeants, returning from a training exercise and likely tired, ran over a couple of girls because they were tired and stupid, compare to an Israeli Officer pulling his side arm and shooting an unarmed civilian girl in cold blood?

You gonna have to share some of that crack you are smoking.

Oh wait: AN isolated incident of two Sergeants running over a couple of Korean girls doesn't equal US policy anymore than any other country.
Did I do it right?

[Nakura Chambers]

I never get sick of this line of rhetoric.

"Provide examples for your wild allegations!"

"Here's one."

"Isolated incident! Proves nothing!"

Rinse, repeat.

When you try to nation bash against a country, then use cherry picked examples that are not representative of a wider policy, it isn't rhetoric.

[vetinari]

Military aid to Israel gets spent in the US anyway, so really, its not like the US is losing anything.

[Nakura Chambers]

So how does an isolated incident where two US Army Sergeants, returning from a training exercise and likely tired, ran over a couple of girls because they were tired and stupid, compare to an Israeli Officer pulling his side arm and shooting an unarmed civilian girl in cold blood?

You gonna have to share some of that crack you are smoking.

Oh wait: AN isolated incident of two Sergeants running over a couple of Korean girls doesn't equal US policy anymore than any other country.
Did I do it right?

The two American sergeants weren't found guilty of any offense. There is no US policy of running over Korean girls.

The Israeli officer was found guilty of the unlawful discharge of a weapon. There is no Israeli policy of shooting children.

Also, without seeing the evidence relevant to the cases, how can you possibly argue that someone was innocent or guilty? Do you think this is any different from people who automatically assumed Officer Wilson was guilty in the Mike Brown case?

[Mormolyce]

When you try to nation bash against a country, then use cherry picked examples that are not representative of a wider policy, it isn't rhetoric.

Prove that they are cherry picked examples not representative of a wider policy.

[Kasierith]

When you try to nation bash against a country, then use cherry picked examples that are not representative of a wider policy, it isn't rhetoric.

Please, point out anything that I said that constitutes nation bashing. I clearly expressed my thoughts, gave reasons, you asked me a question and I expanded on my point to present you an incident that has been cited in the United Nations and numerous human rights groups as an example of the Israeli military not taking civilian casualties seriously.

[Nakura Chambers]

You wear the pin because you support the alliance. The alliance is based on ridiculous amounts of aid being sent to Israel. You don't support such aid being sent to Israel in this manner. Hence, you DON'T support the current alliance.

I know, logic is a bitch.

The alliance is based on far more than the United States merely throwing money at Israel. We also share plenty of intelligence data, advocate for each other in the international community, provide logistics access to each other, promote trade between our states and should defend each other in case of a foreign attack.

[Kasierith]

Also, without seeing the evidence relevant to the cases, how can you possibly argue that someone was innocent or guilty? Do you think this is any different from people who automatically assumed Officer Wilson was guilty in the Mike Brown case?

This is one of the most shameless and despicable handwaving of the incident I have ever seen. And I've been in the Israeli embassy talking to them about their policies on this issue.

[Nakura Chambers]

Yet you've failed to respond to the UN report that 70% of those killed during the 2014 Israeli military actions in Gaza were civilians, 25% of the total were children. They have a long history of this kind of thing.

The mission's objectives were to eliminate the offensive capabilities of Hamas. That was Israel's objective and they tried to accomplish it with as few civilian deaths as possible. Just because there were an unfortunately high amount of civilian deaths (according to the UN, so take it with a grain of salt), doesn't mean that the objectives weren't accomplished or that there weren't attempts to minimize civilian casualties.

[Deleted]

The mission's objectives were to eliminate the offensive capabilities of Hamas. That was Israel's objective and they tried to accomplish it with as few civilian deaths as possible. Just because there were an unfortunately high amount of civilian deaths (according to the UN, so take it with a grain of salt), doesn't mean that the objectives weren't accomplished or that there weren't attempts to minimize civilian casualties.

No. I won't take the UN report with a grain of salt.
Intent doesn't matter when the results are 70% civilian deaths and a whole lot of infrastructures destroyed like the only power plant.

But this is secondary really. What I'm asking myself is why a proud American would be ok with this "alliance" where Israel gets everything they want and also make fun and bully you in the process.
Like every time there is a presidential visit to Israel to discuss many things including illegal buildings that us condemn, and Israel completely ignores them and starts building a few days before or after.
Or when Netanyahu said to Obama "dont try to second guess me again".

Not sure why someone so proud of its country would go through this.

Oh and by the way, operations like the last one only reinforce Hamas ranks and push palestinians away from a moderate solution.

[Nakura Chambers]

Prove that they are cherry picked examples not representative of a wider policy.

If you're going to make the claim that Kasierith's example is representative of a wider policy, then the burden of proof lies with you. Just as the burden of proof would rely on me if I claimed that Saudi Arabia puts homosexuals to death.

[Deleted]

"Islam is bad, because there is a lot of propaganda in Islam."

[Endus]

No matter how careful you are, you're going to end up killing civilians when you bomb an area smaller than 140 miles, housing nearly 2 million people.

Which is why you don't bomb it.

There are plenty of other options. They're not as convenient and safe for the IDF. But the morally right path is typically not the easiest and safest path to tread.

- - - Updated - - -

"Islam is bad, because there is a lot of propaganda in Islam."

We're talking about one specific government, when we talk about Israel.

Islam is a widely diverse religion, and statements made about one group often do not apply to many, or even most, other Muslims, which is why generalizations are bad.

I'm sure you thought you were making a valid argument, but you literally introduced the wild generalization that you're attempting to deride.

[Deleted]

"Islam is bad, because there is a lot of propaganda in Islam."

Islam is not a state.... ?!

[vetinari]

Actually, intent does matter.

If you blow up an ammunition bunker inside an orphanage and kill a thousand children, the side in the wrong isn't the side that bombed the orphanage, but the side that put the bunker inside the orphanage.

Under the laws of war, killing civilians is fully allowed, as long as there is "military necessity".

[Kasierith]

If you're going to make the claim that Kasierith's example is representative of a wider policy, then the burden of proof lies with you. Just as the burden of proof would rely on me if I claimed that Saudi Arabia puts homosexuals to death.

The problem was not that the soldier shot a 13 year old girl (well, it was, but different kind of problem). The problem was that 1) the army covered it up and pretended it didn't happen, falsifying records until the Israeli people got a hold of the recording, and 2) that the officer was charged with an improper discharge of his weapon. For killing a 13 year old, and stating that he would have killed her if she were a 3 year old. That isn't an isolated incident. That's pretty much purposeful negligence.

[Zelk]

Israel is bad because they're encroaching on the land of another people

[Endus]

Actually, intent does matter.

If you blow up an ammunition bunker inside an orphanage and kill a thousand children, the side in the wrong isn't the side that bombed the orphanage, but the side that put the bunker inside the orphanage.

This is like saying if a murderer breaks into an orphanage, the cops are justified in riddling the orphanage with bullets, and the murderer's responsible for all those dead kids.

It's nonsense.

Under the laws of war, killing civilians is fully allowed, as long as there is "military necessity".

Which means that;

1> The target absolutely must be taken out. Ammunition bunkers typically don't qualify; this refers to things like active threats. As in "they're still shooting rockets at us from that location", not "they fired a bunch of rockets from there an hour ago", even.

2> You have no other valid alternatives. Sending in ground troops to secure the bunker is also an option. If 1000 IDF troops die securing that bunker, and saving those 1000 kids, then I'd consider that a worthwhile trade. Not because I think little of the IDF, or Israelis, but because soldiers exist to fight and die to protect innocents. That's their fundamental role.