Left Wing Politics devours itself - Is there any future for the PIGS?

[Sunseeker]

Well, pretend you are European. Your country has gotten a lot of money from other nations, agreeing to repay the debts some day. Your government then spent years spending money irresponsibly and now your economy became shit. Then you tell foreign nations that you won't pay? Your country is just asking to not have any more foreign money invested in it, and since your economy is already in the dumps, this mean more poverty and a worsening crisis for your people.

Problem is not the loans. It's the past governments that spent the money irresponsibly, and the present government that now wants to not repay those who invested that money on the country in the first place.

If your economy is shit, how are you going to pay the money back? Cutting funding to eduction? Letting your utility systems fall into disrepair? Not paying people to work?

I work in debt collection, and honestly there are some people who just are NOT going to pay the money back. They either lack the capital(no home, no car, no real money in the bank) or they lack the ability(old, injured, disabled, etc...). Greece has no capital save it's sovereign territory, and with a shit economy they also lack the ability to pay back their debts. Honestly, demanding poor nations pay back ever-growing debts is a waste of time. In the future: don't loan them money. For now: move on to better prospects.

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America has around $800 billion invested in Euro banks. Greece is approximately $300 billion in debt to Euro banks.

If Greece doesn't pay the Euro banks back, America loses that money. If America loses that money, you will get taxed more to plug your Governments financial hole.

I bet that changes your perspective on austerity now, doesn't it

No. Greece isn't going to pay the money. It doesn't have it. How can it pay it? Even if it paid it, it'd only be paying like 1% annually, taking it hundreds of years to pay off the debt. Not paying it off isn't significantly different than paying pennies on it. Also, the actual value of American investment in Greece is fairly small. Greece does not owe almost 1/2 of all American money invested in Europe.

[Independent voter]

Could you imagine if the US was asked to adopt an austerity plan?

[Deleted]

If your economy is shit, how are you going to pay the money back? Cutting funding to eduction? Letting your utility systems fall into disrepair? Not paying people to work?

I work in debt collection, and honestly there are some people who just are NOT going to pay the money back. They either lack the capital(no home, no car, no real money in the bank) or they lack the ability(old, injured, disabled, etc...). Greece has no capital save it's sovereign territory, and with a shit economy they also lack the ability to pay back their debts. Honestly, demanding poor nations pay back ever-growing debts is a waste of time. In the future: don't loan them money. For now: move on to better prospects.

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No. Greece isn't going to pay the money. It doesn't have it. How can it pay it? Even if it paid it, it'd only be paying like 1% annually, taking it hundreds of years to pay off the debt. Not paying it off isn't significantly different than paying pennies on it. Also, the actual value of American investment in Greece is fairly small. Greece does not owe almost 1/2 of all American money invested in Europe.

See the link i posted.

Greece owes the Euro banks.

America has huge investments in the Euro banks.

Greece doesn't owe America directly, it is a chain of debt.


http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/20...y-market-funds



Greece defaulting greatly hurts the EU, which, in turn, greatly hurts America.

Knock on effect.

We as civilian tax payers will pick this debt up, you included.

But hey, you don't support Greece having austerity measures to help pay their debts back, and, it has ended up costing. You.

[Deleted]

They should do what Jesus did and cast the bankers out, preferably into the sea.

[Rukentuts]

Could you imagine if the US was asked to adopt an austerity plan?

You mean the things Republicans actively advocate for on a daily basis?

[DeicideUH]

If your economy is shit, how are you going to pay the money back?

Austerity.

Cutting funding to eduction? Letting your utility systems fall into disrepair? Not paying people to work?

I work in debt collection, and honestly there are some people who just are NOT going to pay the money back. They either lack the capital(no home, no car, no real money in the bank) or they lack the ability(old, injured, disabled, etc...). Greece has no capital save it's sovereign territory, and with a shit economy they also lack the ability to pay back their debts. Honestly, demanding poor nations pay back ever-growing debts is a waste of time. In the future: don't loan them money. For now: move on to better prospects.

But that's the point, don't you see? Austerity is asked so the country can rebuild its economy. It's slow and painful, but it's usually the only way short of having a complete turn of luck (like, say, finding a renewable energy source and exporting this solution, thus making everyone want to invest in you). If the country refuses to do austerity, he's also making it clear he won't pay the debt. If he can't pay the debts, then other countries, companies and investors won't give the country more money, thus making the country fall into a spiral of crisis after crisis.

No. Greece isn't going to pay the money. It doesn't have it. How can it pay it? Even if it paid it, it'd only be paying like 1% annually, taking it hundreds of years to pay off the debt. Not paying it off isn't significantly different than paying pennies on it. Also, the actual value of American investment in Greece is fairly small. Greece does not owe almost 1/2 of all American money invested in Europe.

Austerity is a way to ensure that the country will fix its economy over time and eventually rebuild its economy.

Why do the countries feel "forced" to austerity? Because they know they need foreign money anyway, and so must comply or they lose it.

What these extremist political factions do is to use the populations' feelings of being "forced" in order to reach power. Then they usually fuck even more the country's economy by doing populist solutions that appear to improve things initially, but only get everything worse over time.

Check out what happened in Venezuela. How can a country that is swimming in oil get into such a sorry state? Populism. Spending money to make the population feel happy, while at the same time depleting the nation's resources. They are lacking even toilet paper nowadays. And the government blames the US, of course.

[Bakis]

the left doesn't consider loans a loan that needs to be paid back it is just a wealth redistribution program. The left will promises more and more hand outs and will borrow with no intention to payback to pay for those hand outs
what is the one that gave the loan going to do? reposes the country

Meanwhile, GOP states are the most dependent on government
You could at least try to be so blatently hypocritical considering democrats are communists in your view.

[Sunseeker]

See the link i posted.

Greece owes the Euro banks.

America has huge investments in the Euro banks.

Greece doesn't owe America directly, it is a chain of debt.


http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/20...y-market-funds



Greece defaulting greatly hurts the EU, which greatly hurts America.

Knock on effect.

We as civilian tax payers will pick this debt up, you included.

I don't particularly care, because as I stated: that's the end result anyway. It doesn't matter if Greece won't pay its debts or not, Greece can't pay its debts. The end result is the same either way. It doesn't matter how austere Greece becomes, it doesn't matter if their economy shoots to record levels! It would take them hundreds of years to realistically pay off their debt.

So lets skip the song and dance and go right to the 'everybody gets fucked' when Greece goes out with a bang.

[Independent voter]

You mean the things Republicans actively advocate for on a daily basis?

It's different when you are advocating the austerity.

[Sky High]

Could you imagine if the US was asked to adopt an austerity plan?

it has, for years now. it's called trickle down economics.

[Rukentuts]

It's different when you are advocating the austerity.

The economic damage cares who advocated for it?

[evilman]

Well, pretend you are European. Your country has gotten a lot of money from other nations, agreeing to repay the debts some day. Your government then spent years spending money irresponsibly and now your economy became shit. Then you tell foreign nations that you won't pay? Your country is just asking to not have any more foreign money invested in it, and since your economy is already in the dumps, this mean more poverty and a worsening crisis for your people.

Problem is not the loans. It's the past governments that spent the money irresponsibly, and the present government that now wants to not repay those who invested that money on the country in the first place.

The problem isnt just the past goverments of Greece but a rather big part of its population.
For years and years the goverment has been running the country in a very old fashioned illogical way and now has to modernize pretty much everything in a short time.
On top of that there is loads of corruption in Greece and nothing has ever been done to counter that, corruption has become a daily part of life.

Because of the bad way the goverment was being run (on multiple levels) and the corruption goverment employees and union workers have been able to get unreasonable high wages and pensions. Wages the goverment can not afford and tbh never was.

For years the goverment sold land to private investors far below market value etc.

A to big percentage of the country has contributed to the current situation.

ps.
The current situation with Greece, Portugal, Ireland etc is one of the main reasons why GB isnt part of the Euro.
When they first started talking about the Euro GB was one of the countrys that wanted to set high requirements and only wanted strong countrys to join the Euro.
Germany wanted to set lower requirements and wanted to get as many countrys in the Euro as possible.

If GB had gotten their way Greece would never have been part of the Euro nor would several other countrys.

[Deleted]

I don't particularly care, because as I stated: that's the end result anyway. It doesn't matter if Greece won't pay its debts or not, Greece can't pay its debts. The end result is the same either way. It doesn't matter how austere Greece becomes, it doesn't matter if their economy shoots to record levels! It would take them hundreds of years to realistically pay off their debt.

So lets skip the song and dance and go right to the 'everybody gets fucked' when Greece goes out with a bang.

Incorrect.

Greece CAN pay it's debts back if they performed austerity.

Sacrifice now and rebuild.

The United Kingdom did it, Greece can do it.

Greece have chosen not too, because they don't want to.

[Stormdash]

Austerity is bullshit. Foreign nations telling me how my country should be run? Fuck that. I live in America precisely to avoid that sort of European paternalistic bullshit.

Any country can run itself however it wants... on its own dime. Once you've got your hand out, though, you have to run it -- at the very least -- in ways certain to be able to meet your debt service.

[Sunseeker]

Austerity.

But that's the point, don't you see? Austerity is asked so the country can rebuild its economy. It's slow and painful, but it's usually the only way short of having a complete turn of luck (like, say, finding a renewable energy source and exporting this solution, thus making everyone want to invest in you). If the country refuses to do austerity, he's also making it clear he won't pay the debt. If he can't pay the debts, then other countries, companies and investors won't give the country more money, thus making the country fall into a spiral of crisis after crisis.

Austerity is a way to ensure that the country will fix its economy over time and eventually rebuild its economy.

Why do the countries feel "forced" to austerity? Because they know they need foreign money anyway, and so must comply or they lose it.

What these extremist political factions do is to use the populations' feelings of being "forced" in order to reach power. Then they usually fuck even more the country's economy by doing populist solutions that appear to improve things initially, but only get everything worse over time.

Check out what happened in Venezuela. How can a country that is swimming in oil get into such a sorry state? Populism. Spending money to make the population feel happy, while at the same time depleting the nation's resources. They are lacking even toilet paper nowadays. And the government blames the US, of course.

You're hilarious. You'd gut the core of the government's ability to take care of it's people, which is quite frankly, the only reason government exists at all, your gut the workforce's ability to improve the quality and quantity of their output, and then strip all their income to prevent them from investing in improvements to their nation in favor of paying off foreign debt. You're essentially creating a nation of slaves. Anyone with two eyes can see that. Noone wants to be a slave, much less trapped in a nation of slaves. All you'll do is create a mass exodus from Greece as the nation falls into ruin, creating a huge refugee problem, or lead to the rise of nationalist parties. The latter of which is already happening.

Why are you Europeans so surprised at this? You're fucking over the entire country and all its people and you're surprised that they're promoting EU-defying nationalism and refusing to pay their debts? The arrogance!

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Incorrect.

Greece CAN pay it's debts back if they performed austerity.

Sacrifice now and rebuild.

The United Kingdom did it, Greece can do it.

Greece have chosen not too, because they don't want to.

The UK practiced Austerity? lol, when did that happen? 40 years ago under Thatcher? The most hated and vilified UK leader in recent history?

Also: if they're 'sacrificing', what are they going to use to rebuild their country? Their excess income is paying off debts. Are you suggesting they take out loans?

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Any country can run itself however it wants... on its own dime. Once you've got your hand out, though, you have to run it -- at the very least -- in ways certain to be able to meet your debt service.

Who's going to make them? Are you going to invade them?

[Deleted]

You're hilarious. You'd gut the core of the government's ability to take care of it's people, which is quite frankly, the only reason government exists at all, your gut the workforce's ability to improve the quality and quantity of their output, and then strip all their income to prevent them from investing in improvements to their nation in favor of paying off foreign debt. You're essentially creating a nation of slaves. Anyone with two eyes can see that. Noone wants to be a slave, much less trapped in a nation of slaves. All you'll do is create a mass exodus from Greece as the nation falls into ruin, creating a huge refugee problem, or lead to the rise of nationalist parties. The latter of which is already happening.

Why are you Europeans so surprised at this? You're fucking over the entire country and all its people and you're surprised that they're promoting EU-defying nationalism and refusing to pay their debts? The arrogance!

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The UK practiced Austerity? lol, when did that happen? 40 years ago under Thatcher? The most hated and vilified UK leader in recent history?

Also: if they're 'sacrificing', what are they going to use to rebuild their country? Their excess income is paying off debts. Are you suggesting they take out loans?

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Who's going to make them? Are you going to invade them?

United Kingdom initiated austerity in 2010 and we are still going through austerity measures until at least 2018.

We are doing very well from it. Debts are going down and economic prosperity is going up.

I guess that showed you huh?

[MerinPally]

The UK practiced Austerity? lol, when did that happen? 40 years ago under Thatcher? The most hated and vilified UK leader in recent history?

The UK is practising austerity right now and has been since 2010, anyone remotely up to date with UK politics is aware of this. They've even extended it to 2018, was meant to finish last year or next year but they're going to keep going.

[DeicideUH]

The problem isnt just the past goverments of Greece but a rather big part of its population.
For years and years the goverment has been running the country in a very old fashioned illogical way and now has to modernize pretty much everything in a short time.
On top of that there is loads of corruption in Greece and nothing has ever been done to counter that, corruption has become a daily part of life.

Because of the bad way the goverment was being run (on multiple levels) and the corruption goverment employees and union workers have been able to get unreasonable high wages and pensions. Wages the goverment can not afford and tbh never was.

For years the goverment sold land to private investors far below market value etc.

A to big percentage of the country has contributed to the current situation.

Of course. Look at my case. I've been voting my government for the past 8 years. The current party in power is a very corrupt group of leftists that managed to stay in power by "defending the poor". Over time they are depleting our economy with bad use of resources and corruption. And yet the population keeps electing them every time. Last year we almost managed to change the party in power, but were once again defeated. I fear the next 4 years will be very hard on a lot of people here, but of course the poor will be the ones suffering the most. The left wing always uses the poor to stay the power, than the poor are always the ones suffering because of it.

So I understand the situation very well. Hell, I live it every day of my life. I've been saving my money for years because I know the situation has been worsening slowly and will get worse quickly now. A government that spends more money than the country can generate leads only to disaster.

[Kalis]

Incorrect.

Greece CAN pay it's debts back if they performed austerity.

Sacrifice now and rebuild.

The United Kingdom did it, Greece can do it.

Greece have chosen not too, because they don't want to.

The UK has a huge modern economy, Greece doesn't, the two aren't comparable in how they can cope with austerity measures.

[Sunseeker]

The UK is practising austerity right now and has been since 2010, anyone remotely up to date with UK politics is aware of this. They've even extended it to 2018, was meant to finish last year or next year but they're going to keep going.

I am not even remotely up to date with UK politics.

The UK has a huge modern economy, Greece doesn't, the two aren't comparable in how they can cope with austerity measures.

Also, this.
It's one thing to ask a rich, powerful nation to cut spending and start paying down debts, but Greece is not one of those nations.