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  1. #21
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mostdeadlygeist View Post
    <snip>
    No. You're entitled to be inclined to believe whatever you want, but that doesn't make it true.

    I don't know what you think staring at the swing timer does, but the only thing it affects is Killing Machine and it has been said a thousand times on these very forums that ignoring Killing Machine altogether is a 1% DPS loss in the worst case scenario.

    Thank you and have a good day, sir.

  2. #22
    I'm pretty sure that the armory shows the correct haste values implemented in the icy talons hotfix a few weeks back. The client is all kinds of messed up and doesn't really show stats correctly because in order for the tool tips to be corrected there needs to be a patch.

  3. #23
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnirok View Post
    I'm pretty sure that the armory shows the correct haste values implemented in the icy talons hotfix a few weeks back. The client is all kinds of messed up and doesn't really show stats correctly because in order for the tool tips to be corrected there needs to be a patch.
    The haste rating (for example: 1658 rating = +18.42%) is correct in armory, the total probably isn't wrong either it just doesn't mean what you think it means.

  4. #24
    Actually, it's simple to test. Just highlight your attack speed in your character pane and that's essentially what your haste is (minus the added rune regen from the attack speed bonus from icy talons). Aka, it confirms what I originally said.

  5. #25
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    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ticus/advanced

    my armory says i have +59.24% haste.
    1340 rating (14,89%)

    simcraft and askmrrobot still says that haste is better for me.

  6. #26
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mostdeadlygeist View Post
    Actually, it's simple to test. Just highlight your attack speed in your character pane and that's essentially what your haste is (minus the added rune regen from the attack speed bonus from icy talons). Aka, it confirms what I originally said.
    The need to always be right with some people, good lord. Since when has attack speed been equal to haste? Just admit you made a mistake, it's not that hard.

  7. #27
    Haha, I like your last little bit. It only affirms that you are actually the one who wantsto be right. The only problem is you're now seeing that you aren't so you seem to be on the aggressive. Just remember...you started this when you had to ad hominem instead of just giving your opinion.

    Haste is the same thing as attack speed because that's what actually affects a DK besides rune regen. How can you not figure this out? That's why the total is rolled into the haste value on armory. You failing to realize this only makes me not believe some random internet dude even more.

    Let's look at the pros and cons for haste and them I'm done with this.

    Pros:
    -Increases value of Might of the Frozen Wastes (35% more natural white damage which is slightly increased with the added haste)
    -Increased rune regen (small bonus since regen talents nullify it slightly--good for the bad rng downtime)
    -Increased chance to proc KM, or at least a steadier amount

    Cons:
    -GCD gets capped the more haste you have. DK's already have a large amount of natural haste as stated
    -Smaller hits due to not stacking other important stats like MS. More haste means less MS. Less MS means you're only buffing your white damage which isn't your main attack (OB). Not to mention every attack procs MS as well.
    -During lust added haste is capped since you easily hit cap at that point.

    Basically, haste is good to a point. Just like most stats, you have to realize the value of other stats working together simultaneously rather than simply looking at sims and going all in on one stat. Just because you sim better, it doesn't mean you'll do more damage with it since you have to deal with real life scenarios of lag and not playing perfectly. Keep stacking it though. It's not my character.

  8. #28
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mostdeadlygeist View Post
    Haste is the same thing as attack speed because that's what actually affects a DK besides rune regen.
    My god, you are thick. Here, I brought you some visual aids.



    You're wrong, and possibly too stupid to realize you're wrong. If you still insist after this, you're beyond anyone's help.

    Haste was already a decent stat for 2H Frost before the changes. 2H Frost liked it because it had massive downtime. It STILL has downtime even after the buffs. All the haste changes did was made each point of haste more effective by A) dropping from 100 to 90 haste per 1% increase and B) boosting the bonus haste we get from Icy Talons from 5% to 20%. And that's what shifted the stat weights in favor of haste.
    Last edited by mmoca2301102ea; 2015-01-28 at 12:24 AM.

  9. #29
    Ad hominem. Look it up. It will help your future arguments look stronger.

    If you think that the minute (aka not noticeable) increased haste regen and more white damage outweigh increased MS chance on all attacks, then good luck.

  10. #30
    So nerds, are we going tits out haste or keep geming/chanting multi? All my sims at 674 all point to haste and so does robot... has anyone actually tried ingame?

  11. #31
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mostdeadlygeist View Post
    Ad hominem. Look it up. It will help your future arguments look stronger.

    If you think that the minute (aka not noticeable) increased haste regen and more white damage outweigh increased MS chance on all attacks, then good luck.
    Sigh. Oh please, don't be ridiculous. I'm not attacking you personally, because I can't think of anything else to say anymore. I'm only frustrated at repeating myself over and over again to an arrogant narcissist who despite all evidence to the contratry is too stubborn to change his incorrect view and still thinks he knows better than every theorycrafting person/website out there all based on his own personal opinion.

    I just ran my stat weights again for my own personal amusement and it's not even close despite my already massive chunk of haste:

    Strength 5.47
    Haste 3.18
    Multistrike 2.62
    Versatility 2.31
    Mastery 2.16
    Crit 1.95

    In case there's still someone else following this train wreck of a discussion, I have provided plenty of explanations, data and proof as to why mostdeadlygeist is full of shit - BUT if you still do think he's correct, then by all means go by his imaginary soft cap of 1000 haste rating and invest everything in multistrike after that.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrathan View Post
    Sigh. Oh please, don't be ridiculous. I'm not attacking you personally, because I can't think of anything else to say anymore. I'm only frustrated at repeating myself over and over again to an arrogant narcissist who despite all evidence to the contratry is too stubborn to change his incorrect view and still thinks he knows better than every theorycrafting person/website out there all based on his own personal opinion.

    I just ran my stat weights again for my own personal amusement and it's not even close despite my already massive chunk of haste:

    Strength 5.47
    Haste 3.18
    Multistrike 2.62
    Versatility 2.31
    Mastery 2.16
    Crit 1.95

    In case there's still someone else following this train wreck of a discussion, I have provided plenty of explanations, data and proof as to why mostdeadlygeist is full of shit - BUT if you still do think he's correct, then by all means go by his imaginary soft cap of 1000 haste rating and invest everything in multistrike after that.
    but should we be changing to haste over multi?

  13. #33
    Yesterday I did some sims to see whether haste is better than Ms or at which point Ms takes over, and I noticed something weird. Although I play with NP over defile, simcraft still uses Plague Strike. I ve been playing with NP for the last 10 days, using haste build, and I never ever needed to cast Plague strike. Anyone else noticed that too? Is it me, or just simcraft isn't function properly? I m at work and cant post screenshots atm, but I m convinced that Plague Strike has no place in Frost 2H rotation with Necrotic Plague.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrathan View Post
    Sigh. Oh please, don't be ridiculous. I'm not attacking you personally, because I can't think of anything else to say anymore. I'm only frustrated at repeating myself over and over again to an arrogant narcissist who despite all evidence to the contratry is too stubborn to change his incorrect view and still thinks he knows better than every theorycrafting person/website out there all based on his own personal opinion.

    I just ran my stat weights again for my own personal amusement and it's not even close despite my already massive chunk of haste:

    Strength 5.47
    Haste 3.18
    Multistrike 2.62
    Versatility 2.31
    Mastery 2.16
    Crit 1.95

    In case there's still someone else following this train wreck of a discussion, I have provided plenty of explanations, data and proof as to why mostdeadlygeist is full of shit - BUT if you still do think he's correct, then by all means go by his imaginary soft cap of 1000 haste rating and invest everything in multistrike after that.
    You are providing proof, he isn't, gonna side with you on that fact alone

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrathan View Post
    Sigh. Oh please, don't be ridiculous. I'm not attacking you personally, because I can't think of anything else to say anymore. I'm only frustrated at repeating myself over and over again to an arrogant narcissist who despite all evidence to the contratry is too stubborn to change his incorrect view and still thinks he knows better than every theorycrafting person/website out there all based on his own personal opinion.

    I just ran my stat weights again for my own personal amusement and it's not even close despite my already massive chunk of haste:

    Strength 5.47
    Haste 3.18
    Multistrike 2.62
    Versatility 2.31
    Mastery 2.16
    Crit 1.95

    In case there's still someone else following this train wreck of a discussion, I have provided plenty of explanations, data and proof as to why mostdeadlygeist is full of shit - BUT if you still do think he's correct, then by all means go by his imaginary soft cap of 1000 haste rating and invest everything in multistrike after that.
    I do get similar results from simcraft, with heavy haste build (around 1700-1800 haste rating) and still haste stat weigh is over 3.1 and multi is under 2.7.
    It sims higher dps too, for about 1k.

  16. #36
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mostdeadlygeist View Post
    Let's break it down together shall we. I'm inclined to believe that the armory displays your haste including the icy talons 20% attack speed buff (but it's not combined in game, you have to highlight your attack speed swing stats) as well as the 10% haste on top of that. Factor in unholy aura for another 5%, plus your haste, and you have huge natural amounts of haste as a DK--basically hitting a soft cap pretty easily. I don't know where else it would get that number unless it is factoring in icy talons.

    Ok. Great, still with me? I'm not sure if this is ESL here. Please reread when you get the chance.

    Your auto attack is incredibly useful information, especially as frost and moreso if you're 2h frost, which is the point of this thread. If you aren't using a swing timer to time when to use OB and FS, you're not playing the spec efficiently. Since haste affects your auto attack speed, this is very important information and is part of your simulation when haste is calculated since the robot is timing these perfectly with no lag and no missed KM's. 2h frost gets a bonus 35% white damage, so by increasing your haste, you utilize that more. Once you start going overboard, however, the stat will be devalued, much like crit is devalued since we have KM. It's not that it's a bad stat, it's that beyond a certain point you'd be better off with something like MS. Basically, if your haste is so great that your gcd starts to fall back between each swing, you're probably hurting yourself since at a point you will be rune starved.

    I'm not criticizing sims. If you read the post I state that no one is going to mimic them so you shouldn't take them as gospel. Once again, reading comprehension. Also, the fact that you think a swing timer has 0 affect on performance...I'll just leave it at that.
    Can you actually post logs of you playing like this instead of saying it over and over? You're worse than the Wrien guy who used to say frost 2h destroyed frost in every thread ever.

  17. #37
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking.../latest#boss=0. Have at it.

    Some fights have and haven't been recorded since I don't do the recording myself. I wouldn't mind checking everyone else's either.

  18. #38
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Miff View Post
    but should we be changing to haste over multi?
    If you play 2HF exclusively, yes. Some people play unholy on the side, and unless they want to swap their enchants and gems every time they change specs they're going to stick to multistrike (since it's the best secondary for unholy and second best for 2HF).

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miff View Post
    So nerds, are we going tits out haste or keep geming/chanting multi? All my sims at 674 all point to haste and so does robot... has anyone actually tried ingame?
    Still not sure. All math and SimC say yes, go for Haste. Real raiding says I got beat by our medicore UH DK by about 2k per Heroic boss except H Imperator where for some reason PL and NP shine- at least in my case. Can post logs when I get home if need.

    Last nights upgrades brought me to 1709 Haste and I plan on doing a normal run tonight some how to see how it feels and my personal DPS. I wil be sticking with NP again all night and maybe try BoS again on Bracken. Sick of dropping Defile and dummies more boss around.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by mostdeadlygeist View Post
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking.../latest#boss=0. Have at it.

    Some fights have and haven't been recorded since I don't do the recording myself. I wouldn't mind checking everyone else's either.
    Have at what exactly? Showing us that it's possible to parse heroics in the mid 70th percentile using a haste sop cap of 1000. People could parse that stacking crit, does that mean it's the best stat? No. Really not sure what you're trying to prove.

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