Statted gear in MMORPG's

[zealo]

"c" stands for "computer". cRPG literally means computer RPG, RPG made for computers.

Regardless, we are talking about MMORPGs here in this thread, so I don't know why Ferocity keeps bringing up "cRPGs" from 80-s.

I know what the C stands for but you are confused about what it means as a subgenre, it still doesn't turn games that are video game RPG's, into cRPG's, which is pretty well defined as games like divinity, planescape, fallout and so on.

[May90]

I know what the C stands for but you are confused about what it means as a subgenre, it still doesn't turn games that are video game RPG's, into cRPG's, which is pretty well defined as games like divinity, planescape, and so on.

See the correction I made above. I don't like using acronyms out of their actual meaning (just like I wouldn't call North Korea democratic people's republic), but let's play your game here. Either way, to say that story is secondary for cRPGs is to, at least, lie with regards to many of them.

[Hammerbro]

These types of rewards are for continuous play week after week. So simple question for the general side that doesnt like stats, when you kill the end content boss and get your achievement, what makes you want to go back and do it again? No way GW2 is going to produce new content every week/month for you to sink your teeth in, so imagine being one of the better guilds in the game. Do it once and nothing for the rest of the time.

[Ferocity]

"c" stands for "computer". cRPG literally means computer RPG, RPG made for computers.

Computer and Computer/Console, depending on context, in anyway - to underline the difference from tabletop activities with similar name.

Regardless, we are talking about MMORPGs here in this thread, so I don't know why Ferocity keeps bringing up "cRPGs" from 80-s.

MMORPGs are a part of CRPGs. And let's better not analyze the story of WoW. It definitely was not the reason why people played WoW for 10 years.

Many developers just deny possibility of making MMOAction or MMOAdventure per se (though from what I heard, GW2 is quite close to this). I understand, MMOAction isn't appealng with latency and such, and MMOAdventure is usually a 1-time business. So, instead, we get watered-down MMORPGs, and people started to think about MMORPGs as games "where you can collect mounts, pets, do pet fights", whatever, and call everything else as "grind", "statted" gear, "cookie cutter" stuff, etc.

And let us not speak about MMOs before WoW and story in them

May, just time after time there are factual examples that CRPGs are, to put it roughly, about exploration, progress, world, character building according to specific rules and stat systems in first places, and not about some "story" or "moral choices". Story is just background. What you loved, was closer to interactive electronic book than game, if to ignore dubious gameplay. "Story" started to get used as excuse in 2000+ to release games which are just bad in their gameplay.

[May90]

MMORPGs are a part of CRPGs. And let's better not analyze the story of WoW. It definitely was not the reason why people played WoW for 10 years.

It is the reason why I play WoW nowadays. Stop talking for abstract "people" without clarifying which people you mean.

May, just time after time there are factual examples that CRPGs are, to put it roughly, about exploration, progress, world, character building according to specific rules and stat systems in first places, and not about some "story" or "moral choices". Story is just background. What you loved, was closer to interactive electronic book than game, if to ignore dubious gameplay.

"Interactive electronic book" and "game" are not mutually exclusive.

"Story" started to get used as excuse in 2000+ to release games which are just bad in their gameplay.

Lol, you don't know what you are talking about. What the hell is "bad gameplay"? Millions of people loved Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights gameplay, but... Ferocity didn't like it, so all those millions are wrong!

[Ferocity]

It is the reason why I play WoW nowadays. Stop talking for abstract "people" without clarifying which people you mean.

But pandaren and then time travel... *sigh*... storytelling in WoW can't be really taken serious at all... And that's ok, game should be judged for gameplay and not for story. Though you probably play it for old world, my guess. I am not sure how it adds to gameplay and replayability though. You read/watch story once, and that's basically it. Until decades later you forget it and will need to reread.

"Interactive electronic book" and "game" are not mutually exclusive.

"Interactive electronic book" and "video game" ARE mutually exclusive. Unless the latter has lots of pictures and pretends on quest-adventure genre. Sorry but they are of opposite polarities, book is passive form of entertainment, while video game is active form.

Lol, you don't know what you are talking about. What the hell is "bad gameplay"? Millions of people loved Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights gameplay, but... Ferocity didn't like it, so all those millions are wrong!

1st of all, BG1 had completely useless engine:
a) Broken pathfinding. It is not just bad, it is completely broken.
b) very-very long loading screens and you have to look at them a lot (at a time of game's release).
c) luck-based missions unless you exploit engine.
d) exploits are on level - place spacebar to interrupt spellcaster. They just didn't care to make proper engine.
e) other exploits make you capable of ignoring all D&D system altogether and you must use those exploits unless you are masochist.
f) respawns are bugged to no end - fog of war revives a lot of enemies instantly, which sucks in specific areas with kobolds and spiders.
g) UI has multiple flaws, too long to list them all here.
...
Man, this is far beyond entirely unacceptable for video game to come up as this. Millions of non-gamers loved BG1 probably. Those who are in games for graphics and story, whatever, but not for gameplay. Let me not even get started to dissect BG1's core gameplay, as it is also extremely far from being good. How do they say - millions of flies can't be mistaken?

Sorry, BG1 was example of how graphics and mass-advertisement can make crap game look good. You are free to counter-argument flaws of BG1's engine, but imo even those flaws alone are enough to render the game worthless.

[zealo]

Lol, you don't know what you are talking about. What the hell is "bad gameplay"? Millions of people loved Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights gameplay, but... Ferocity didn't like it, so all those millions are wrong!

I don't think many praised the gameplay of baldur's gate at all, certainly none of the people I interacted with at the time of its inception, there is a reason for why people these days recommend even newcomers to mod the game over onto the updated BG2 engine, because its original version is downright terrible. And even BG2 suffered from the issues of AD&D in gaming, which uses, I think its 2.5?

[Fencers]

"Interactive electronic book" and "game" are not mutually exclusive.

This is completely incorrect. It is illogical and contradictory to both what a book and a video game are in function and intent.

The nature and function of both items are mutually exclusive. One could not produce a book or video game if it were true- it would be impossible.

[Rukh]

Why are they contradictory?

[Fencers]

Why are they contradictory?

A video game by necessity confirms and relies on intrinsic player agency within the work. Literature by necessity can not allow intrinsic reader agency in the work.

We can not program a video game by which players have no intrinsic agency within the work, nor can one write a story by which the reader has intrinsic agency in the work.

A has intrinsic agency / B has no intrinsic agency.

We can not create these things by any known means of the medium(s), form(s), intent or technology. One can not take an interactive action in a passive capacity. To actively interact in any form is contra to passive observance.

Edit; Actually, it goes further than player agency in the case of video games. It is not possible to render and run a play environment without interaction or cause by any number of variables with manipulate geometry, outcome or quantifiable action in the program. Even at the most relaxed implementation of a program, mechanisms of play must be calculated (Progress Quest, ex).

[Dilbon]

These types of rewards are for continuous play week after week. So simple question for the general side that doesnt like stats, when you kill the end content boss and get your achievement, what makes you want to go back and do it again?

If you play a game of chess and win, why would you play again? MMOs seem to be all about the rewards, which is a shame.

[Ferocity]

If you play a game of chess and win, why would you play again? MMOs seem to be all about the rewards, which is a shame.

Somewhat analog of chess in video games - puzzle genre. Not going to go in depth about why it differs from other genres and what makes for gameplay process and "rewards" of each genre.

But what some people call as "rewards", in CRPGs are a part of gameplay process - getting more experienced as character and getting statistical improvements through such ways as gear. It is part of gameplay process just like shooting is part of gameplay process in shooters.

It is just another example that player can't get into genre, it is fine, everyone has its own tastes, but it is just bad tone to bash genre gameplay elements, denying that they are part of the genre.

News of the day: shooters seem to be all about shooting, who could have thought.

[May90]

snip

Ugh... I'm done here. I'm not sure you've ever heard of such words as "personal taste" and "personal opinion".

I don't think many praised the gameplay of baldur's gate at all, certainly none of the people I interacted with at the time of its inception, there is a reason for why people these days recommend even newcomers to mod the game over onto the updated BG2 engine, because its original version is downright terrible. And even BG2 suffered from the issues of AD&D in gaming, which uses, I think its 2.5?

If at least one person liked the gameplay, then saying that the gameplay was bad objectively is incorrect.

By the way, there is no separation of "gameplay" and, say, "story". Gameplay is the overall gaming experience. If the story is in the game, then it is a part of the gameplay. So, yes, millions of people liked Baldur's Gate gameplay, otherwise they wouldn't rate this game (specifically the second part) as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, RPGs of all time in almost every list. By "bad gameplay" people usually mean, say, "bad combat", "bad responsiveness" and such - which are only a part of a game, not necessarily its main features.

News of the day: shooters seem to be all about shooting, who could have thought.

No, they are not. "Shooter" is just a word to describe the game's combat system. If the game is not focused on combat, then no, it is not "all about shooting". Same mistake you keep making with regards to RPG.

[Ferocity]

No, they are not. "Shooter" is just a word to describe the game's combat system. If the game is not focused on combat, then no, it is not "all about shooting". Same mistake you keep making with regards to RPG.

First-person shooter is subgenre of 3D action. Examples, Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, Counter Strike, Quake, etc. No, shooter isn't about combat system, it is well-defined genre.

May, I can understand everything, but why make some new genres' systems? Shooter is shooter, always was a shooter.

Genre presumes specific approach to combat, including CRPGs, and combat mechanics, being major part of gameplay mechanics, largely describe the genre. So if there is shooter with leveling, stats and gear - it is shooter with RPG elements, but not CRPG.

CRPGs are heavily focused on world (or big dungeon), exploration, character progress and combat. Story is background. Combat outcome is 99% decided by characters' setup and stats (natural, from gear, buffs, etc.). If at least one of above elements (except story) is compromised, we are dealing with bad quality CRPG or with game from some other genre which is falsely labeled as CRPG.

[May90]

Nice way to go, coming up with your own definitions and then wondering why other people disagree with them.

[Itisamuh]

What would be your incentive to do raids or dungeons more than once? Gear is the reward for doing something. .

Perhaps things should be designed to be fun enough that people simply want to do them? It works fine for other game genres.

[blackblade]

what am i missing here? why is this the model of gear for so many mmo's?

You should've played City of Heroes back when it was a thing. Instead of gear you found enhancements which could be slotted into your abilities increasing their parameters (range, area of effect, knockback duration, etc).

[Dilbon]

I've been thinking that maybe monsters should not drop gear at all, only gold. And the only way to get gear is to buy it from vendors. This way no content gets obsolete as everything you do would reward you with gold.