clashes with my raiders in when to sit people

[clevin]

I've been playing for 8 years, I've been raid leading for 7 of that. I've raid lead hardcore progression as well as more semi of late. I was very excited when the flex scaling was announced bc it would mean my standbys could be regulars, which is what everybody wanted. Of late however there have been a handful of my players who have been pestering me to sit lower performers the second any hint of difficulty springs up.

...
The second something seems difficult "well we have to sit the low people" why? We're not wiping to dps issues, we're wiping to stupid shit that you guys included are doing. I would much rather keep people in here, let them see the fight, and maybe after a handful of pulls if they are not doing well enough sit them and explain why. Every pull last night there was improvement, and if we're improving and again not wiping due to low dps I see no reason to sit people. They aren't going to get better being on the bench.

</rant>

Tell the whiners that if they want to raid lead, the door is that way. Also, link their fails back to them in tells (not raid chat).

People like that are poison and if they won't stop after you've made your position clear I'd strongly consider kicking them after a final warning.

- - - Updated - - -

We're not hardcore, but we do have a time when we sit people. It's not based on when things get tough, but on a preset time. Like for the first half, everyone is in. Then for the second half (if there's been a speed bump) the bottom performers step out. It's stated ahead of time that it will be the top X people who proceed, or if it's a particular level of performance. (people on the cusp are rotated in by the week).

Not relevant to the OP though. If you're wiping to DPS issues then sure, sitting the bottom DPS, especially if they're far below the average, can help. So can sitting the people who always die to avoidable damage. However, if OP is being accurate, the complainers are as guilty as others of mistakes.

Also, a couple of wipes just aren't a big deal and people who whine over them need to get a grip.

[lifteez]

We put 110 pulls on Hc imp, before killing it. We finished last tier 450 world in 10man, but at 1k for that HC kill, much farther behind then then our usual kills. This is the first tier raiding with our "SoOgroup 2" players for many of us, so many players blamed the guy doing 16k, or the guy doing 18k, as to why we wiped. And a similar issue with 160 pulls on Mtectus. In the end me and another officer as down with each of the players saying things in chat and voice about sitting them. We went through logs together and pointed out why we died, each and every mine or each time a add was up for 2 minutes, and the 6 dps who could of done three times as much dmg to the adds.

This was a process, but it started with first letting them know that kind of talk won't be allowed in raid. Raid mentality makes or breaks groups, and it's never helpful for a cynical player to speak negatively about a other. Then we showed them that everyone's playing subpar, and if they never fucked up good for them, it doesn't matter. If that doesn't work, and they continue to talk negatively, you must debate how much there negative attitude is ruining other people's nights and take action.

[Sard]

Democracy is great, but a raid has to be a dictatorship. A good raid leader knows when to let people vent and talk, and when to lay down the law. Also, 110 heroic imp pulls sounds agonizing. I'd be passed too lol.

[ThePants999]

Three, friends, had gotten into an early pug and gotten up to Korgath. Naturally they were trying to double dip with coins for loot on various bosses and screw everyone else.

I sat them out until we got to Koragh and brought in a couple of newer guys, giving up speed for the extra loot piece and to make a point. When people wanted to know why I sat them out I stated simply that they had inconvenienced 17 other players because they were being loot F'ing whores. If we raided any other day but Tuesday I might have understood but that isn't the case.

Well, THAT made no sense. Something's pretty wrong with your logic. They had no effect on your 17 other players - you still get exactly the same number of pieces of loot per player eligible to loot - 3.4 pieces between 17 people instead of 4 between 20. Personally I'd be delighted if my raiders went and pugged it earlier!

[ultramini]

Well, THAT made no sense. Something's pretty wrong with your logic. They had no effect on your 17 other players - you still get exactly the same number of pieces of loot per player eligible to loot - 3.4 pieces between 17 people instead of 4 between 20. Personally I'd be delighted if my raiders went and pugged it earlier!

Yours isn't accurate either.

The fact is that you can still have 4 loots for 17 people even when you run 20 eligible people.Being eligible for loot doesn't mean you need it (you may only need 1 piece in the entire raid) so the more loot it drop,the better it is regardless of eligible people when you run ML/council.

[Aqua]

OP you are being a good raid leader by not benching people as first resort and gauging their willingness to learn the fights as a more important and desirable quality. Your raid members need to be made more understanding of this as well. Everyone wants an easy and smooth run, but your guild cannot grow and get better if you never give a chance to those underperforming members who are willing to learn and improve.

This. Stay strong and firm, your guild members moaning are forgetting the first week and their first raids. I'm sorry but I don't care how skilled you are you WERE NOT doing 25k+ the first week, you just weren't. Maybe if your class rolled a lucky strike and gear favoured you heavily in dungeons you were close to the 20-21k mark, but otherwise sit the fuck down.

People actively critiquing in raid chat should be pulled up on lowering morale, you do not discuss that with ANYONE except the raid/guild leader. Make that clear.

Anyone doing differently is being actively provocative and needs taking down a peg or two.

If improvement from the newer members is not seen once their gear is on par with the complainers, then discussions and help sessions can be had.

You are doing the right thing, stay cool.

[Gandrake]

doing less than 18k in 630 gear is bad, really unacceptable

we had 1 player like that on our heroic butcher kill and i immediately demanded they be sat after multiple low % wipes because they didn't even have the ring and still had sub ilv 600 blues

its like seriously what the fuck they had all the time in the world to prepare for raid week. i was geared in 3 days and got my ring in 6. I was not happy. if everyone was putting in as much effort as i did, we would have finished heroic weeks sooner and wouldn't be stuck on a shit realm rank that makes it hard to recruit for mythic

i'd be asking for them to be benched too

Our old raid leader wanted us to flask up for every new fight... i did not respect his authority...
No point flasking / potting up if we are whiping to non DPS issues.

flasks are cheap, last an hour and persist through death. there is no reason not to use them.

i barely even play the game and i have always had enough gold for basic raid provisions since cataclysm. stop being a bum.

[Deleted]

You're progressing on the perfect boss for this, if someone hits mines, they sit, because that will wipe that raid more often than not, if the loudmouths are hitting mines and the lower dps are not you will kill the boss easier with the lower dps.

and how do they learn?

People learn by experience, by doing.

If you bench people who dont hit perfection first time, pretty soon you will be raiding alone.

[Sunseeker]

Get hard with your regulars who are talking about sitting people and tell them to sit the fuck down and shut the hell up or they're going to be sat. Don't put up with arrogance or asshole behavior just because they're good players. Every guild I've ever been in that prioritized high-performing assholes over potentially worse performing not-assholes has exploded without hesitation.

Sit down with your regulars, tell them YOU make the decisions on who raids, that YOU make the decisions on who sits and YOU will not have them undermining your authority. If they wish to continue to do so, they can enjoy being perma-sat or gkicked.

[waat]

Get hard with your regulars who are talking about sitting people and tell them to sit the fuck down and shut the hell up or they're going to be sat. Don't put up with arrogance or asshole behavior just because they're good players. Every guild I've ever been in that prioritized high-performing assholes over potentially worse performing not-assholes has exploded without hesitation.

Sit down with your regulars, tell them YOU make the decisions on who raids, that YOU make the decisions on who sits and YOU will not have them undermining your authority. If they wish to continue to do so, they can enjoy being perma-sat or gkicked.

LOL good way to dissolve your raid. This is almost as bad as the guy who told his RL he wasn't going to flask/pot on progression.

Just talk to your raiders and explain to them why it's not helpful to talk about sitting people openly, and to hit you up via whisper/pm if they want to suggest someone to sit.

No need to flip out and go ruthless dictator on them.

[Deleted]

Democracy is great, but a raid has to be a dictatorship. A good raid leader knows when to let people vent and talk, and when to lay down the law. Also, 110 heroic imp pulls sounds agonizing. I'd be passed too lol.

A good leader leads. He does not compel.

A well run raid shoudl not bitch and need to vent. it should foster an attitude of positive learning from wipes and mistakes. Where failed attempts are seen as a net positive in experience and practice. A situation where criticism can be made in a manner that does not involve recrimination.

[Khorm]

LOL good way to dissolve your raid. This is almost as bad as the guy who told his RL he wasn't going to flask/pot on progression.

Just talk to your raiders and explain to them why it's not helpful to talk about sitting people openly, and to hit you up via whisper/pm if they want to suggest someone to sit.

No need to flip out and go ruthless dictator on them.

Agreed. Raids are not dictatorships, they are democracies. The RL and Officers are the ruling party and the raiders are the constituents. Everyone is free to give advice and people are kept happy that they are heard even if their plan isn't chosen.

If this problem keeps coming up it is because the OP hasn't resolved it. He should give clear indicators on what performance is necessary, how long a person will be given to improve, what happens if this is not met. Once parameters have been established and everyone in the guild is on the same page and they are enforced then it will stop a lot of the bitching.

The worst thing you can do is to stay quiet on issues that are clearly having an affect on a large part of your raid group and let discontentment simmer under the surface until finally it does explode to the surface where you'll probably find that you won't have a guild left to lead.

[Count Zero]

Make sure your reasoning is clear to everyone in the guild. Allow people a time/place to voice their concerns - OUTSIDE of raid time. Raid time is for raiding, not backseat guild leading.

[threads]

You got some toxic people in your raid group. Tell them to deal with it or leave. Wipes happen and nobody should be complaining about anything after only 7 wipes on a new boss.

[Acidbaron]

and how do they learn?

People learn by experience, by doing.

If you bench people who dont hit perfection first time, pretty soon you will be raiding alone.

In reality you need to sit people out and need them to accept it. There's taking time to learn and deciding when that process has taken long enough.
If you cater to just the weakest of your team and draw no line in the sand you'll end up losing all your good players. The amount of wipes they did on a certain encounter is easily twice to 3 times the amount they needed to learn the fight.

Another point is not everyone takes criticism well, you can phrase it as good as you want to some will hear it as an attack and some people regardless of your good intentions do not improve, So what do you do then are you going to ruin 1 persons evening or the whole raid their evening?


This isn't a black and white situation and every choice you made has to be considered for the good of the raid and their progress, individuals matter less. And yes as a leader you are a dictator but you do need to be able to explain your choices, you are just part of a team and the only way for them to listen is not to just be an authority figure but to also know if you make a call it's made on more than "i said so". If you can explain and defend your every choice you'll never run into a major issue with reasonable people.

[Shiroh]

I'd sit those who are complaining. You are a guild raid. People are supposed to have time to fail, learn and improve. Those guys sound like people who have 'grown up' being carried in pugs. They also damage the atmosphere in the raid group and disrespect you as a leader. That's quite damaging long-term.

[Acidbaron]

LOL good way to dissolve your raid. This is almost as bad as the guy who told his RL he wasn't going to flask/pot on progression.

Just talk to your raiders and explain to them why it's not helpful to talk about sitting people openly, and to hit you up via whisper/pm if they want to suggest someone to sit.

No need to flip out and go ruthless dictator on them.

While seeking out conflict with such people is asking for trouble the concept is sound, you do need to show people who is actually in control. If everyone does their say over coms or in raid chat you create a toxic situation that will decrease your raid performance and there won't be any person steering the raid.

If you let the guild raids be ran by ego's your guild will explode once you hit your first "wall", you do need to give people a way to vent. Generally i told them to whisper me if they felt the need to go all armchair raid lead i pulled the strings, it all depends how far things have gone how harsh you need to be.

While losing good players can harm your raid progress temporary removing toxic elements almost always leads to better results long term.

[Khorm]

If you let the guild raids be ran by ego's your guild will explode once you hit your first "wall", you do need to give people a way to vent. Generally i told them to whisper me if they felt the need to go all armchair raid lead i pulled the strings, it all depends how far things have gone how harsh you need to be.

The RL's ego is just as dangerous.

[Volibear]

@OP: Get the people who are creating the toxic atmosphere (by openly talking about sitting players), drag them individually into a private VOIP channel, and explain to them that YOU are the raid leader, and YOU will make the decisions. Being a raid leader is tough, and sometimes you do need to seem like a dick to some people by benching them for performance issues, but if they realise they're being benched for performance (make sure you tell them why) they will make an effort to improve if you give them an opportunity next boss / lockout.

[Deleted]

If people bitch at you DURING the raid about benching people, kick them from the raid for being disruptive.
These are not the people you want raiding with you. you want the people who will accept and understand that during progress fights there will be wipes as people learn the encounter. I would much rather have people in a raid who make an occasional mistake and slightly lower DPS because they are concentrating on not fucking up than Mr "elite make no mistake, think everyone should be perfect on the first try" asshole raider.

now, if after 2 or 3 nights and the same people are still making the same mistake, then you should look into what is going on, get them watching videos. etc. but never bench on the first mistake.