Wait for Deep Insight?

[Daedelus]

I am playing mostly combat. I have Sub too but still learning that so my questions are combat-related.

My main question is - should I wait for Deep Insight before using Killing Spree?
Opener is pot, ambush, SnD, SS, Rupture, RS, then refresh both SnD and Rupture on 5cp. Then wait for Deep Insight, KS, AR and obviously getting 5cp Eviscerates in there where I can. Then just carry on with the rotation. But should I use AR first to allow DI to build faster? I know normally you should use KS first then AR to allow KS to come off cd faster but should it be different for the opening sequence to also make better use of the potion?

Then during the fight should I wait for DI before using KS or should I use it on CD?

[Grayjoy]

The general rule with KS is you want to use it as much as possible, as soon as possible. Delaying it is bad news bears.

For the opener you listend, I mean, you can't rupture. Ignoring that, you want to get SnD up and KS as soon as possible, then AR. You'll reach deep insight in AR, so continue to hammer away and make liberal use of vanish/ambush (glyph of disappearance is very nice here).

If you have killing spree of cooldown and are about 2 sinister strikes away from reaching deep insight, I would delay it. Not 100% sure what the math says, though. There are occasional compromises you need to make in a split second with combat like your DI question and say, the choice to AR while killing spree is 22 seconds away from coming back up. It's the little things that make the spec interesting.

[Deleted]

Rupture as combat? I think you shouldn't delay KS and AR for DI except its the last ones that you can use in that fight or you are only 1-2 SS away from DI.

[Deleted]

Combat pull normally goes Ambush -> Revealing Strike -> Sinister Strike -> SnD -> Sinister Strike until green insight -> KS -> Adrenaline Rush -> proceed as nml

May even be better to use KS straight away, going Ambush -> RS -> SS until empty energy -> KS to not waste SnD time/KS CD time.

I havent done the maths, but the first scenario is how I usually open.

[Deleted]

I'd advise against delaying your CDs. If you are one SS from another insight state or 2 SS from deep insight, you can go ahead, but waiting more than that proves to be a dps loss in the long run.

[Deleted]

Only ever time you would delay it for a couple of seconds to reach Deep Insight is when it will be the last KS of the fight because the boss is near death.

[Rontu]

the only times you should delay KS for deep insight is if you are not going to use a finisher between.

IE, you have 0CP and AR is on CD and you have 2 stacks of shallow - you can reach deep insight without using evis, so you should delay it.

[Deleted]

I'd like to see you post the logs where you were able to use Rupture as combat tbh.

[Deleted]

Combat pull normally goes Ambush -> Revealing Strike -> Sinister Strike -> SnD -> Sinister Strike until green insight -> KS -> Adrenaline Rush -> proceed as nml

May even be better to use KS straight away, going Ambush -> RS -> SS until empty energy -> KS to not waste SnD time/KS CD time.

I havent done the maths, but the first scenario is how I usually open.

Prepot > Stealth > (Shadowstep) > Ambush > SnD > (Trinkets) > KS > RvS > AR > Standard rotation

To answer your question, the only time you consider delaying is if A) you can reach next insight without going above 9 CP, or B) there's an imminent burst phase where KS would benefit exponentially from the damage increase (KS+BF+combatpot, boss vulnerability etc.)

The reason you don't do A) on pull is because you lose out on too much of your trinket procs, weapon enchant procs etc. if you delay.

[Deleted]

the only times you should delay KS for deep insight is if you are not going to use a finisher between.

IE, you have 0CP and AR is on CD and you have 2 stacks of shallow - you can reach deep insight without using evis, so you should delay it.

Whilst this idea is mostly correct, your example could definitely prove to be a DPS loss in the long run.

People can give you decent generic advice such as waiting X seconds or for X Sinister Strikes, but in an actual encounter the answer almost always comes down entirely to "it depends".

If you know roughly what the length of the encounter will be then you're already in a good position to decide how many Killing Sprees you're likely to get, and therefore how long you're likely to be able to wait before using it. RNG always plays a little role in this, especially when we get our set bonuses, but if you find yourself with KS on cooldown for another 60 seconds when an encounter is over, then that means you did one of two things wrong: Either you delayed much longer than you should have done, or you could have waited longer to reach a higher BG state before using it a few times.

One thing you really want to avoid is using offensive finishing moves while you're able to Spree. You definitely (in 99% of possible instances) want to Spree before you use a finisher.

It's a funny thing to try and manage and it's so hard to get it perfect, but the more you do a fight the better you'll get at judging when to use it. It's one of the things I love about Combat; it's a thinking man's spec. It's like the Chess of rogue specs.

Also, my opener when on 0 SS stacks in no-state is Ambush > RvS> SS > SS* > SnD* > SS > SS > KS > AR > Standard Rotation

* If the first SS brings you to 5 CPs via RvS proc then use SnD first, then 3x SS. Always use SnD on 5 CPs because 4 has a 20% chance not to refund a CP.

[Larinnian]

I will never use an offensive finished if my KS is off cooldown. I'll pop KS and then use the finisher when I get back to lower the cooldown immediately. I don't believe you should save it. But then again, there may be certain circumstances in which it's beneficial, but in general, I say use it as soon as it's off CD.

Unless of course Killing spree will get me killed (goddamnit pls make us immune to damage while jumping around, it's just rude to jump me into crystalline barrage without me having control over it >.< )