1. #1
    Deleted

    Need some feedback on my performance on Mythic Twin Ogron (warrior tank)

    Hi there,

    So tonight my guild goes in for its first attempt on Mythic Twin Ogron. We have a few good attempts, but generally we struggle to make it passed the 40% mark. A lot of things seem to be going wrong and I'm struggling to work out exactly what. I've identified a few problem raiders who need to up their game, but I want to know what more I could be doing, and what I can do to improve to compensate for bad play on others' parts. I feel like nobody gives me any constructive criticism (maybe that's a good thing, but I can see by my own self-evaluations that I made a lot of errors) I just wanted to know if anyone might be able to give me some feedback on my performance and help me improve, and tell me who you think the worst offenders in the raid were based on this log. I am the Prot Warrior, Grimforge, and this was my first time on Twin Ogron. I was tanking Pol throughout the night.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...uras&source=30

    Big thanks in advance to anyone who will take the time to help me review my own and my raid's performance and hopefully change a few things that might lead to a kill next week.
    Last edited by mmocda8f712d13; 2015-01-27 at 11:17 PM.

  2. #2
    Quick look from a dps player's perspective:

    Your dps is very low. You're not filling GCDs. You're not using your level 60 talent. You're not using prepot. You're not using your level 60 talent enough. Sudden Death probably isn't the best for prot, but you'd have to consult someone else on that one.
    Using this one pull:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=30

    4 * 60 = 240 + 54 = 294 seconds, assuming 0 haste that's 196 GCDs.

    You had 150 casts + 2 bladestorms at 4 gcds each (4 minute and change fight means you could get 4 off) = 158 out of 196 GCDs used. That's almost 1/5th of the time you're standing around doing nothing, assuming you have no haste, no haste buff, and no hero.

    You have very low shield slam usage. Assuming no S&B procs you'd get 49 casts. You have 42 casts, and you had 10 sword and board procs. You have 32 casts of revenge, when you should have more as it gets reset.

    Warrior with same 669 ilvl, up to the time you wiped was pulling 28k to your 16. Here's the major differences in casts:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...3&end=10039369
    50 shield slams to your 42
    58 devastate to your 37
    51 revenge to your 32
    20 TC to your 27

  3. #3
    Deleted
    Hah. guess I need to seriously up my game in terms of DPS output then. I suppose all I can say in my defense is that I try and focus on just getting mechanics right when learning a new fight and once I can do it in my sleep, then I try and improve DPS. But yeah, thanks a lot - you've highlighted some shitty play on my part. I should have used Dragon Roar, I guess I was just too lazy to re-talent and I need to do something about those missed GCDs... it's not something I've ever even really thought about because I've always played a tank, so pushing my own DPS is never something I have really had to worry about.

  4. #4
    Sudden Death is bad choice. Imo unyielding strikes is the best choice for this fight if you can handle the playstyle, you will end up outdpsing half the raid if you get good at it. Cleaving with heroic strike almost the entire fight is ridiculously strong. If you feel like you're not too good at it then heavy repercussions is the best choice.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    Thanks for that. I might consider taking HR for that fight then while I am still learning. I have previously used US on fights that do not require much movement (such as Kargath and Butcher) and have pulled very respectable numbers (upwards of 25k) which is almost bang on what Simcraft says I should be doing in my gear. But I struggle to balance it finely with mitigation - I feel that if I use US, I will inevitably end up compromising my defensive capabilities on some level, which at this stage is not something I want to do in exchange for extra deeps. I think my problem is that yeah, it's very easy to pull your best numbers on a static fight, but quite another to pull them on a fight where you have to move around a lot, especially when you are learning. I need to get to grips with what I am doing and then hopefully my damage output should improve.

  6. #6
    Unyileding Strikes doesn't necessarily mean you'll be compromising your defensive ability. Heroic Strike can be used for rage management (preventing yourself from capping and wasting rage) and Unyielding Strikes opens up that window for using HS to manage rage without hurting your defenses. It can take a bit to get used to, but as long as you're prioritizing your defenses, you shouldn't see a negative effect on your survivability due to using US.

    I noticed relatively recently that WCL isn't counting the effect of Resolve into Shield Barrier's average size. Thus, I need to look at your armory in order to get an idea of how you're using your Shield Barriers in general. From your armory, I see that you have 5944 attack power, with 3813 strength and 875 bonus armor. When I include buffs (Mark/Kings, Battle Shout, and the armor bonus from Defensive Stance), then you have a total of 6796 attack power. From the tooltip, Shield Barrier used at 20 rage gives a shield that is 1.125*AP. It scales with more rage up to (1.125*AP)*3.375 when you use 60 rage. Thus, your 60-rage-no-Resolve SBar size is 25.8k roughly.

    I'm starting with the fight you linked. This is your 20th M Ogron pull and it had a length of 4:54.

    From your Casts tab I can see that you used 1 Shield Wall, 1 Last Stand, 2 Enraged Regens, 3 Demo Shouts, and 2 Vigilances. Due to the length of fight, I'd expect to see 2-3 Shield Walls, about 2 Last Stands, and about 5 Demo Shouts. Defensive CDs should obviously not be used on cooldown, but you can still rotate them well to provide good coverage while leaving yourself options for emergencies, though you likely won't have any emergencies with proper play. I like that you were using Vigilance. It's important to keep an eye on your cotank, especially if you can do something to help them. Overall, your defensive usage could be improved, but it's horrible.

    As far as offensive CDs go, I see only two Bladestorms and no Dragon Roars. From your armory, it looks like you were using Anger Management, so it's not surprising to see no Ravagers. However, I would recommend Ravager for this fight. Additionally, Anger Management only provides a benefit if you're getting extra CD uses out of it or if it allows you to align CDs better with mechanics. Since you weren't using CDs optimally, you were receiving little or no benefit from Anger Management. I also don't see any potion or trinket uses. From your armory, I see that you have Pol's Blinded Eye. Make sure you have that bound and use it for the defensive AND offensive buff that it is. The same goes for potions.

    From your Buffs tab, I see that you had a 47.28% uptime on Shield Block. Not bad at all.

    From your Healing tab, I see that you used 8 SBars with an average size of 23k. You probably could have fit a few more in, but it looks like you put 60 rage into most of them. From the calculation above, you can see that by spending 3x the rage, you get 3.375x the absorb amount, so using SBar with 60 rage is important.

    From your Resources tab, I see that you had 0 rage wasted and 1854 generated. Good work.

    For a fight that lasted 4:54, I would expect to see around 294 GCDs. I'm not counting in the effects of haste and Blood Lust because I'm lazy, so that's just a ballpark estimation. Looking at your Damage Done, I see you used 157 GCDs so you're not making good use of your GCDs. Make sure you're always doing something. Don't miss out of Revenge and Shield Slam crits and in the absence of anything else to do, fill the time with Devastate. You also used Thunder Clap quite a lot. You likely would have gotten more damage out of prioritizing Revenge and Shield Slam. Even if there's nothing else to hit but Devastate, you're still missing out on the opportunity to proc a Shield Slam. Occasional TC use is good for keeping Deep Wounds on both targets, though.

    Looking a bit closer at Revenge, I see that you had 32 casts and 49 hits. Since you have the opportunity to hit two targets with *most* of your Revenges, I'd expect to see a bit closer to 64 hits out of 32 casts. Obviously since Phemos goes out for Whirlwind, you won't get exactly 64, but try to make sure you have the bosses in Revenge's cleave range as often as possible.

    You also had 16 Sudden Death procs and only 11 Execute uses.

    From your Damage Taken, I see no Blaze. Nice.

    I'm running out of time, so I'm going to just do a brief look through a random selection of your other pulls.

    Pull 15: You took at least one stack of Blaze on every Quake. Sblk uptime ~42%, not as good, but not horrible. CD usage still not especially sterling. No trinket uses. 9 SBars with an average size of 20k, so you could do better on that, especially since you took a decent amount of fire damage. 2405 rage gained, 136 wasted (5.65%), so keep an eye on that. (Roughly) 420 GCDs possible, and 203 used. 19 SD procs, 13 Executes.

    Pull 7: SBlk ~42% again, so you could top that off a bit. 16 Sudden Deaths, 11 Executes. 367 GCDs possible, 176 used. Defensive CD use was better, but no trinket uses. 2195 rage gained, 260 wasted (11.8%), you can and have done much, much better. You took stacks of Blaze on all but one Quake and you also got hit by Charge once. 6 SBar casts with 24k average size. Good average size, but use a few more.


    Overall: your defensive CD usage isn't bad, but could still use a bit of attention. Make sure you're keeping the bosses in range of your Revenge cleave (this also ensures that all of your DPS can cleave as well!) and make sure you're using every GCD. Your SBlk uptime is generally good and so is your average SBar size. Both could use some improvement, but they're not atrocious. Make sure you use a few more SBars in between SBlk charges, though. Also make sure you're not capping and wasting rage and use your procs. Also, try to make sure you're avoiding fire. Seems like you had that down toward the end, though.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    Thank you so much for taking the time to write that. It's nice to get some genuine feedback that highlights in a meticulous and detailed way exactly what I am doing well and what I need to improve on. Generally my Sblock/Sbar uptime is good (always over 40%). I think a lot of wasted GCDs are like I said, due to moving around a lot and focusing on trying to get mechanics right (which, as you say, I did start to do in the end). Next attempt, I will try and nail my actual performance. I'm trying to feel out when is the best place to use defensive CDs and time them with heavy damage, so that's probably why I am not using them as often.

  8. #8
    I try to be pretty analytical about my logs analyses. Let me know if you'd like any more help at any point. MMO-C isn't my main hangout, so feel free to pm me if I am not responding to a thread or something.

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