A glimmer of hope for Destruction - or just feeling left out?

[Shamran]

Pre WoD

In Warlords of Draenor, we're pulling back on the ability for many casters to deal damage while moving, and that includes Elemental.

6.1 notes:

Elemental
Enhanced Chain Lightning now makes Earthquake instant cast, and increases the damage done by the next Earthquake by 300% when Chain Lightning or Lava Beam strikes 3 or more targets (instead of increasing Earthquake damage by 60% for each target struck).

In the least, considering the no casting while moving lead-up to WoD, you can't help but chuckle a bit. :-)

[Jessicka]

Not really, Warlock and Elemental are the only ones that really suffered to begin with. They were pretty quick to acknowledge they'd overdone it with Elemental, but have really stood their ground regard to Warlocks. Besides, they buffed KJC.

[FurtyIRL]

Warlocks aren't really penalized that heavily by movement relative to other classes. Situation is pretty liveable as is but the KJC buff gives you even more flexibility (almost 25% uptime if you use on CD).

[Jessicka]

Warlocks aren't really penalized that heavily by movement relative to other classes. Situation is pretty liveable as is but the KJC buff gives you even more flexibility (almost 25% uptime if you use on CD).

Problem here is that on cooldown is just not how you'll ever use it or need it.

[FurtyIRL]

Problem here is that on cooldown is just not how you'll ever use it or need it.

Destruction is the spec that benefits the most from this and that's more or less exactly how you'd use it.

[Sepelio]

Its not even close to how you'd use it for majority of the encounters.

[Jessicka]

Destruction is the spec that benefits the most from this and that's more or less exactly how you'd use it.

Most movement is just for a couple of globals, so having 8 seconds of potential would err me, and I think a lot of people on the cautious side of 'I'll press it when I *really* need it, rather than risk not having it when that happens - it causes you to get a lot less from it, which in turn disincentivises it further. For that reason, I think the charge system on Ice Floes is a much, much better design, because the risk of that is basically gone. Even there, personally I think Blazing Speed is just preferable - certainly as Fire or Frost - it feels like a bigger impact and really lets you GTFO properly. The stats here kinda bear out that thinking amongst players.

Personally, for it to interest me they'd have to throw in a speed boost (50%ish), even if it meant cutting the duration by half and adjusting the cooldown back upward some way accordingly. Certainly looking at these stats, there's something tremendously wrong with the current iteration that suggests to me at least, that something more radical than reducing than cooldown is required to tempt people. It is afterall a risk-reward system up against a flat out reward.

[FurtyIRL]

Most movement is just for a couple of globals, so having 8 seconds of potential would err me, and I think a lot of people on the cautious side of 'I'll press it when I *really* need it, rather than risk not having it when that happens - it causes you to get a lot less from it, which in turn disincentivises it further. For that reason, I think the charge system on Ice Floes is a much, much better design, because the risk of that is basically gone. Even there, personally I think Blazing Speed is just preferable - certainly as Fire or Frost - it feels like a bigger impact and really lets you GTFO properly. The stats here kinda bear out that thinking amongst players.

Personally, for it to interest me they'd have to throw in a speed boost (50%ish), even if it meant cutting the duration by half and adjusting the cooldown back upward some way accordingly. Certainly looking at these stats, there's something tremendously wrong with the current iteration that suggests to me at least, that something more radical than reducing than cooldown is required to tempt people. It is afterall a risk-reward system up against a flat out reward.

Ultimately if the fight is low movement enough that you can sit on it until you *really* need it then the fight isn't high movement enough to validate KJC. If were talking about long CD baseline movement casting (fox, spiritwalkers) then what you're saying makes perfect sense. However, if the fight is ever so frantic that you find yourself ever needing to drop an extra dark soul for 8s of movement casting then I guarantee you're going to want to be using that as often as you possibly can. If you're not then you might as well be taking AD.

I don't think comparing those stats is tremendously useful for evaluating KJC as an ability. Ice Floes is tremendously popular because it's the only talent that's a DPS increase on its tier, while KJC is unpopular because it generally amounts to a DPS loss (but maybe a QoL gain?). At this point I feel like it almost doesn't belong as a talent and instead should be changed to purple spiritwalkers — in essence a medium length personal that allows full movement casting. Such speculation is kind of irrelevant to what I was saying though, not really sure how you ended up with those parallels. The bottom line is that any fight that would force your hand to play KJC basically forces you to use it on CD.

[Gaidax]

I think you are banging the wrong bell here, even if hypothetically Destruction's movement gets back to 5.4 model, it will still be outmatched handily by Demonology as it is now.

I, personally, would not mind mobility issues if there would be actual power behind the spec when stationary.

Destruction, as it is right now, is poor not because of mobility, but simply because it lacks the punch Demonology has now.

[tmtb]

All this talk about pve mobility mattering or not and and in the meanwhile destro pvp mobility is in the gutter.

[FurtyIRL]

All this talk about pve mobility mattering or not and and in the meanwhile destro pvp mobility is in the gutter.

Meanwhile, no one cares because affy is god.

[Jessicka]

Ultimately if the fight is low movement enough that you can sit on it until you *really* need it then the fight isn't high movement enough to validate KJC. If were talking about long CD baseline movement casting (fox, spiritwalkers) then what you're saying makes perfect sense. However, if the fight is ever so frantic that you find yourself ever needing to drop an extra dark soul for 8s of movement casting then I guarantee you're going to want to be using that as often as you possibly can. If you're not then you might as well be taking AD.

I don't think comparing those stats is tremendously useful for evaluating KJC as an ability. Ice Floes is tremendously popular because it's the only talent that's a DPS increase on its tier, while KJC is unpopular because it generally amounts to a DPS loss (but maybe a QoL gain?). At this point I feel like it almost doesn't belong as a talent and instead should be changed to purple spiritwalkers — in essence a medium length personal that allows full movement casting. Such speculation is kind of irrelevant to what I was saying though, not really sure how you ended up with those parallels. The bottom line is that any fight that would force your hand to play KJC basically forces you to use it on CD.

Except that virtually no fights existed that required that level of mobility in SoO, but many, many players still took KJC because it was entirely passive even though it was objectively a loss. The numbers I linked show Blazing Speed being used by between 20% and 50% of players, depending on spec, when it is as you rightly point out, an objective DPS loss over Ice Floes.

That's the point I'm really making here; if you need to press a button to make it happen; it needs to offer a tangible benefit, and/or have minimal risk of 'getting it wrong' if its pure utility. KJC has a definite failure penalty; and it's already objectively a loss before you even start. Either the risk needs to go, or you need rewarding better for using it. Preferably both.

You draw comparisons to SWG, which is fair enough, it was at one point a carbon copy of that ability. That though has a number of Glyphs that add a lot of flexibility on how you use it. I used it in the past for obvious, pre-planned, inevitable movement like avoiding Annihilates, Lightning Storms etc. Because it lasted easily long enough; KJC actually doesn't. The short cooldown and duration actually don't give you any DPS back from those. And you don't get Glyphs for Talents, you get alternative Talents, so that kind of added flexibility won't happen for this ability.

It's a very niche ability that's painted into a corner because it's a talent. It is just shit, and it is never, ever going to be popular when the only passive option on the row is an objective DPS gain.

[FurtyIRL]

It's a very niche ability that's painted into a corner because it's a talent. It is just shit, and it is never, ever going to be popular when the only passive option on the row is an objective DPS gain.

Ya I realize this and I never said otherwise. What I actually said is:

Warlocks aren't really penalized that heavily by movement relative to other classes. Situation is pretty liveable as is but the KJC buff gives you even more flexibility (almost 25% uptime if you use on CD).

which is exactly what I meant. Wasn't debating it's relative failings and/or merits.

[tmtb]

Meanwhile, no one cares because affy is god.

Then nerf affliction and buff destruction.

I got fed up of affliction from so much time forced to be SL/SL.
I find destruction is the only motivating spec to play (or i would, if it didn't suck so much).

[FurtyIRL]

Then nerf affliction and buff destruction.

I got fed up of affliction from so much time forced to be SL/SL.
I find destruction is the only motivating spec to play (or i would, if it didn't suck so much).

Well Blizzard doesn't buff and nerf on your whims. Besides, it's not a matter of numbers, it's that Destruction is just not conducive to high level play. Almost all your damage is telegraphed and easily kickable/reflectable/LoSable. Affliction is only good because almost none of your damage can be actively prevented and the level 100 talent pairs well with multi cleave, which is what 3s is.

[Turturin the Warlock]

Most movement is just for a couple of globals, so having 8 seconds of potential would err me, and I think a lot of people on the cautious side of 'I'll press it when I *really* need it, rather than risk not having it when that happens - it causes you to get a lot less from it, which in turn disincentivises it further. For that reason, I think the charge system on Ice Floes is a much, much better design, because the risk of that is basically gone. Even there, personally I think Blazing Speed is just preferable - certainly as Fire or Frost - it feels like a bigger impact and really lets you GTFO properly. The stats here kinda bear out that thinking amongst players.

Personally, for it to interest me they'd have to throw in a speed boost (50%ish), even if it meant cutting the duration by half and adjusting the cooldown back upward some way accordingly. Certainly looking at these stats, there's something tremendously wrong with the current iteration that suggests to me at least, that something more radical than reducing than cooldown is required to tempt people. It is afterall a risk-reward system up against a flat out reward.

Try not to think of it as a "movement while dpsing cooldown". For destro that's not really the relevant concept. What it really is a "protect my chaos bolts during procs" ability. There's nuance there that I believe is critical to understand.

With RPPM trinkets you will need to get your CB's off when the trinkets proc. If there is a reasonable likelihood you will have to move during that window, you will pop KJC to protect that damage. If that causes you to miss a couple incinerates when you have to move 10 seconds later, that's absolutely a tradeoff worth accepting.

So where I think your logic is off is considering it a reactive ability. It's actually a pro-active one.

Over the course of the fight, protecting a bunch of trinketed CB's is well worth an extra dark soul, which isn't as critical (no pun intended) for destro as it is for say, demonology.

[Grizelda]

So it becomes something we just macro to Chaos bolt?

Historically not compelling game play.



I do see what you mean by the difference in perspective though.

[tmtb]

Well Blizzard doesn't buff and nerf on your whims. Besides, it's not a matter of numbers, it's that Destruction is just not conducive to high level play. Almost all your damage is telegraphed and easily kickable/reflectable/LoSable. Affliction is only good because almost none of your damage can be actively prevented and the level 100 talent pairs well with multi cleave, which is what 3s is.

It's not my whim, it's logic. You said destro would get no attention because affliction is god mode (i'm going by your word it is god mode), and that makes no sense. What makes sense is nerf the too good and buff the bad (altho blizzard being blizzard, logic will have no saying in the matter, so your point of view will no doubt be what will happen).

I merely told you why i wont settle for affliction, even it being oh so good. For me playing warlock is playing destro, and the alternative is going where fun is found, even if in another class. Thats why my warlock stays lvl 86 (i missed half of cata and the whole of mop).

[FurtyIRL]

It's not my whim, it's logic. You said destro would get no attention because affliction is god mode (i'm going by your word it is god mode), and that makes no sense. What makes sense is nerf the too good and buff the bad (altho blizzard being blizzard, logic will have no saying in the matter, so your point of view will no doubt be what will happen).

I merely told you why i wont settle for affliction, even it being oh so good. For me playing warlock is playing destro, and the alternative is going where fun is found, even if in another class. Thats why my warlock stays lvl 86 (i missed half of cata and the whole of mop).

They've stated many times in the past they only ever attempt to balance on spec for PvP because trying to balance all of them would be impossible. Not really sure what's so 'fun' about destro in PvP; pretty much always been inferior to affliction for the whole of MoP for the reasons I stated above.

[Turturin the Warlock]

So it becomes something we just macro to Chaos bolt?

Historically not compelling game play.



I do see what you mean by the difference in perspective though.

Not really macro, no. You'll evaluate what's happening in the fight. You pop KJC when there's a either a risk you'll have to move, or right before guaranteed movement (like an Imperator trap). If the next X seconds (where X is the time your ember dump will consume) is not at risk for movement, you'll hold on to KJC even if it's off CD (because of course you never know for sure how long until next trinket proc/ember dump).

It's going to take a pretty good understanding of fight timings to optimize.