Tiger's Eye Brew usage question

[thaynia]

According to the guide it says to use tiger's eye brew right after your initial RSK/ChEx. Why is this? Wouldn't you want to use it before?
Tiger's eye brew is a flat +% damage modifier, wouldn't you want to cast it every time your rsk/FoF is up?
Would you guys recommend macroing TEB into FoF?

I guess i'm just trying to get my TEB usage at the correct time. I know it's more beneficial with other cooldowns or trinket procs, but i can't see a time where you wouldn't want to use it with FoF.

I guess i'd be interested in hearing some other opinions/thoughts about TEB.

Thanks.

[Babylonius]

This question appears regularly on these forums, there is already a thread discussing much of it: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ith-procs-CD-s

As for what the guide says, if you use TEB too early in your opener then there won't be time for you to build up many stacks. Chi explosion gives quite a bit of stacks so using it after the first one then you will have more than if you popped it after only TP.

[Kwaai]

Here's what Rijn said a little bit ago:

Scenario #1, feel free to hold serenity (or any cd that will stack productively) till you can line it up with something else, *ASSUMING* you will not lose uses during the fight. Long fights are a pain to predict, so I just line them up for pain points - eg mages on margok, chogall etc.

Scenario #2, I can give you a logical breakdown of how I use cd's through my opener and throughout the fight, but I disagree with what some people here promote for the opener as well, so ymmv. I can promise you you won't go too far wrong doing this, and it guarentee's a stable opener for you to perform repeatedly (muscle memory etc), which is a big plus imo.

On the opener I blow TeB+FoF at 15sec left on my prepot, or at 10 stacks TeB, whichever happens first. This way it expires simultaneously with pot, so you can't lose anything there. I then jab til 10sec left on TeB and then serenity no matter what my energy is. I do this religously, 40 wasted energy is a much lesser loss than a gcd of serenity with TeB+pot lost, and you can't really gain by being in serenity after pot ends, rather than before it.

In theory you could determine it was better to blow TeB earlier, given that ring/procs will run out before your prepot will - but since they vary each pull and the numbers are trivially different, I go with repeatability over slight potential gain.

As to using TeB at 10, I don't treat that as a magical thing - but I rarely blow it before that because once you blow it, you can't optimally respond to trinket/ring procs etc. So long as you aren't sitting on 20, you aren't losing damage by waiting, but you might lose 10stack + ring/trinket proc.

I try to line up TeB with a damage boost AND a FoF, so stacking 10 beats out two uses of 5 without the proc. Something like this:
-Serenity is coming off cd now.
->10 stacks, Serenity won't be up in the next 30sec, FoF is off cd within 12sec, and a significant proc is up (flurry, ring, trinket, pot).
->15 stacks or serenity won't be up in the next 15sec, FoF is coming off cd now and I don't expect any better FoF point in the next 15-30sec (SEF adds, aoe, trinket, whatever).
-I am closing in on 20 stacks, and FoF/RSK is coming off cd now.

Wall of text crits you for 9001. You fall asleep.


Sounds about right on the priorities, but I don't find myself using it under 10 stacks often. Keep in mind, unless you have a significantly awesome opportunity available now that you won't have again in the next minute, it probably isn't worth blowing <10, because you can just blow it later when the same opportunity comes back (double proc, adds spawned, etc). If that opportunity is so awesome that you should blow it <10, you probably should have planned in advance to have 10 stacks ready - eg tectus adds splitting, you got lust, 2nd pot, etc.

I still plan around fitting a FoF into most TeB's, but there is a 12second window per 25seconds where you can do that, so I will skip this FoF if I have no buffs and won't cap in the next 13sec or so. If I have to use it in that gap or cap out, I tend to pool chi / energy before TeB'ing so that I can dump the most possible in the window.

In theory, my logic is something like this:

- AOE'ing and >10 stacks and FoF < 12sec cd with enough chi to CX
- AOE'ing units that will be unavailable before FoF comes up and >10 stacks with enough chi to CX
- Significant powerup* and FoF off cd within 12sec and >10 stacks and nothing interesting spawning soon
- Got enough chi to drop a CX now and FoF off cd within 12sec and relatively high stacks (>15ish).
- Stars and moon align (ie, you got 3-4 procs/cds up, and you aren't expecting any aoe/adds/vulnerabilities soon, then you can blow it at any stacks).

You wouldn't go far wrong with just this:
-AOE'ing and >10 stacks
-at least 10 stacks, have procs or >15 stacks and FoF <12sec


*Going off 'two of ring/flurry/scales/pot/coin' would be fine here. Ideally wait on your pot/activatable trinket for a few seconds and use them with the next proc unless it will lose you casts over the fight duration.

[Rixxis]

According to the guide it says to use tiger's eye brew right after your initial RSK/ChEx. Why is this? Wouldn't you want to use it before?
Tiger's eye brew is a flat +% damage modifier, wouldn't you want to cast it every time your rsk/FoF is up?
Would you guys recommend macroing TEB into FoF?

I guess i'm just trying to get my TEB usage at the correct time. I know it's more beneficial with other cooldowns or trinket procs, but i can't see a time where you wouldn't want to use it with FoF.

I guess i'd be interested in hearing some other opinions/thoughts about TEB.

Thanks.

Your initial RSK is done with 0 TeB stacks...

There are countless threads detailing how to use TeB. You want to use it at 10+ and in unison with as many procs/cds as possible. There is a school of thought that says you should pop it regardless of your stacks if you get a trinket proc, however I've found that to actually be a dps loss (At low stacks) and none of the top WW parses show monks popping low stack TeBs when Scales procs.

[thaynia]

I see what you're saying, but if you have trinkets, their ICD's are up at the start of every fight, therefore, if you want your trinkets to align with your TEB usage, wouldn't the beginning be the best time to use it? I'm making this assumption with the intent to use your chi brew before the fight (so you have some extra TEB stacks)

If you are to hold your TEB usage until the last 15 seconds of your pre-pot, then you're missing out on the chance for your trinket procs to align with the TEB usage correct? In fact if it's a proc-based trinket, you're almost guaranteeing it will not align with your first TEB usage by waiting.

- - - Updated - - -

bah i'll look over the threads this weekend.

[Rixxis]

I see what you're saying, but if you have trinkets, their ICD's are up at the start of every fight, therefore, if you want your trinkets to align with your TEB usage, wouldn't the beginning be the best time to use it? I'm making this assumption with the intent to use your chi brew before the fight (so you have some extra TEB stacks)

If you are to hold your TEB usage until the last 15 seconds of your pre-pot, then you're missing out on the chance for your trinket procs to align with the TEB usage correct? In fact if it's a proc-based trinket, you're almost guaranteeing it will not align with your first TEB usage by waiting.

- - - Updated - - -

bah i'll look over the threads this weekend.

When you're Chi Brew/Serenity you pop TeB right at the beginning after you get TP and RSK up (TP>RSK>CB>BoK>CB>TeB>FoF) so your TeB will apply to all of your procs/trinkets still while you're FoFing. You start the fight at max Chi with Expel Harm spamming, so it's senseless to waste the Chi generated by Chi Brew so you can pop TeB at 8 max stacks to buff just 1 RSK.

Chi Explosion is entirely different since you usually run Ascension and not Chi Brew.

[thaynia]

When you're Chi Brew/Serenity you pop TeB right at the beginning after you get TP and RSK up (TP>RSK>CB>BoK>CB>TeB>FoF) so your TeB will apply to all of your procs/trinkets still while you're FoFing. You start the fight at max Chi with Expel Harm spamming, so it's senseless to waste the Chi generated by Chi Brew so you can pop TeB at 8 max stacks to buff just 1 RSK.

Chi Explosion is entirely different since you usually run Ascension and not Chi Brew and you're not getting more tha

Correct me if i'm wrong. Basically, you're valuing the 2 chi over using the RSK with ~8 stacks. I guess I can kind of see this here.
RSK averages ~50k while BoK averages ~25k? So unless TEB is offering > 50% damage increase it's better to have the extra 2 chi.

Assuming you can get a perfect pull and keep refreshing your chi brew before the fight, TEB usage at the beginning would be better. (aka, you get to 10 stacks of TEB, and pull just as chi brew comes off cooldown.) I think the reason the guides show using it after is that they assume you start with 0 TEB stacks and I can see why it could be better to hold it in those circumstances.

[Kwaai]

Correct me if i'm wrong. Basically, you're valuing the 2 chi over using the RSK with ~8 stacks. I guess I can kind of see this here.
RSK averages ~50k while BoK averages ~25k? So unless TEB is offering > 50% damage increase it's better to have the extra 2 chi.

Assuming you can get a perfect pull and keep refreshing your chi brew before the fight, TEB usage at the beginning would be better. (aka, you get to 10 stacks of TEB, and pull just as chi brew comes off cooldown.) I think the reason the guides show using it after is that they assume you start with 0 TEB stacks and I can see why it could be better to hold it in those circumstances.

TEB stacks are cleared on pull. You're advocating for starting a fight with 0 chi and instantly chi brewing. That trades 4 Chi for an extra 4-8 stacks on a single TP/RSK, which I'm fairly certain has been proven to be not worth it. You'll also be unable to blow a 8/9/10 stack TEB for your FoF/Serenity.

[Rixxis]

Correct me if i'm wrong. Basically, you're valuing the 2 chi over using the RSK with ~8 stacks. I guess I can kind of see this here.
RSK averages ~50k while BoK averages ~25k? So unless TEB is offering > 50% damage increase it's better to have the extra 2 chi.

Assuming you can get a perfect pull and keep refreshing your chi brew before the fight, TEB usage at the beginning would be better. (aka, you get to 10 stacks of TEB, and pull just as chi brew comes off cooldown.) I think the reason the guides show using it after is that they assume you start with 0 TEB stacks and I can see why it could be better to hold it in those circumstances.

Uh, you always start at 0 stacks in a raid encounter. Also, it's 4 Chi, and 10% extra damage for 15 seconds. Not sure why you would think it's better to buff a single RSK by 40% (best case scenario as that's 2x mastery procs).

[thaynia]

Uh, you always start at 0 stacks in a raid encounter. Also, it's 4 Chi, and 10% extra damage for 15 seconds. Not sure why you would think it's better to buff a single RSK by 40% (best case scenario as that's 2x mastery procs).

Ah, this makes a lot more sense. I'm kinda thankful for that cause otherwise you'd have to wait 5 mins between each pull to optimize your TEB stacks.

Despite my flaw in thoughts about pre-building TEB stacks.... If you're able to buff RSK more than the amount that a BoK would do, then it would be worth wasting the chi, but since my initial thought about pre-building TEB stacks was incorrect, my theory was incorrect as well.

IE. Gaining the TEB stacks from Chi Brew isn't worth losing the chi for a BoK. If the TEB stacks generated 50% (which they can't) then it would be worth it.

[Kwaai]

Ah, this makes a lot more sense. I'm kinda thankful for that cause otherwise you'd have to wait 5 mins between each pull to optimize your TEB stacks.

Despite my flaw in thoughts about pre-building TEB stacks.... If you're able to buff RSK more than the amount that a BoK would do, then it would be worth wasting the chi, but since my initial thought about pre-building TEB stacks was incorrect, my theory was incorrect as well.

IE. Gaining the TEB stacks from Chi Brew isn't worth losing the chi for a BoK. If the TEB stacks generated 50% (which they can't) then it would be worth it.

It's not just that, but you won't have an 8/9/10 stack of TEB for the FoF/Serenity during all of your procs.

[Rixxis]

Ah, this makes a lot more sense. I'm kinda thankful for that cause otherwise you'd have to wait 5 mins between each pull to optimize your TEB stacks.

Despite my flaw in thoughts about pre-building TEB stacks.... If you're able to buff RSK more than the amount that a BoK would do, then it would be worth wasting the chi, but since my initial thought about pre-building TEB stacks was incorrect, my theory was incorrect as well.

IE. Gaining the TEB stacks from Chi Brew isn't worth losing the chi for a BoK. If the TEB stacks generated 50% (which they can't) then it would be worth it.

You're still missing the point that using it early at low stacks is between a 10-30% damage loss depending on Mastery, added to the fact that your TeB will drop sooner and thus end while you're in the highest point of your DPS rotation (During Serenity).

[thaynia]

You're still missing the point that using it early at low stacks is between a 10-30% damage loss depending on Mastery, added to the fact that your TeB will drop sooner and thus end while you're in the highest point of your DPS rotation (During Serenity).

Well after trying the opener with RSK - TP - chi brew x 2, what do I do if I don't have 10 stacks of TEB? I've been casting serenity even if i'm only at 8 stacks. Is this correct? Is there a minimum number of stacks you want to be at?

[Babylonius]

Well after trying the opener with RSK - TP - chi brew x 2, what do I do if I don't have 10 stacks of TEB? I've been casting serenity even if i'm only at 8 stacks. Is this correct? Is there a minimum number of stacks you want to be at?

Cast FoF before Serenity, you're less likely to miss a Serenity cast than a FoF cast. Pop it at whatever stacks you have before you hit FoF for the first time. The 15s buff should allow for a FoF channel, a GCD to get chi then 10s of Serenity.

[thaynia]

Cast FoF before Serenity, you're less likely to miss a Serenity cast than a FoF cast. Pop it at whatever stacks you have before you hit FoF for the first time. The 15s buff should allow for a FoF channel, a GCD to get chi then 10s of Serenity.

I've been saving FoF until the last few secs on serenity. (in order to save the 3 chi). I'll try casting it before. I guess I can see the benefit here because you're Fof will have gone through ~13 seconds of cooldown by the time Serenity wears off. I'd be missing out on an extra BoK though right since i'm having to use the chi to FoF?

Since Fof is about 50% through it's cooldown, and BoK is about 50% of the damage per execution time... i think these numbers would come out very similar, but FoF might slightly beat it out. (I'm not too good at sim-craft)

[Kwaai]

I've been saving FoF until the last few secs on serenity. (in order to save the 3 chi). I'll try casting it before. I guess I can see the benefit here because you're Fof will have gone through ~13 seconds of cooldown by the time Serenity wears off. I'd be missing out on an extra BoK though right since i'm having to use the chi to FoF?

Since Fof is about 50% through it's cooldown, and BoK is about 50% of the damage per execution time... i think these numbers would come out very similar, but FoF might slightly beat it out. (I'm not too good at sim-craft)

If you FoF at the end of Serenity you miss out on ~30 energy just to gain 1 chi from the FoF rather than a BoK. It's much better to FoF before Serenity.