High Luck bots flooding Pokerstars

[lockedout]

When you play online and the only tells/bluffs people can do are based on what they raise/stand/fold on, yes, it comes down to mathematics pretty quickly.

This is enhanced by the use of HUD's which keep track of all that information on each player.

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... you´d go all in with aces pre flop?

Yes I would. I wouldn't just shove UTG all in for no reason but there are plenty of circumstances you would be all in preflop with aces. It could be ISO play or you got 3 bet or there was a 3 bet+ before you.

[lockedout]

As for pocket aces: No, in a cash game it's extremely rare that you'd ever fold them versus a single all-in opponent pre-flop unless you were second to act and you had extremely over-aggressive people acting after you, perhaps? It's hard to imagine too many scenarios in cash games where you don't want to call an all-in pre-flop with AA.

There are 0 scenarios you would fold aces preflop unless you can predict the future.

[Orange Joe]

What do you think about the high luck bots on Pokerstars that plays 60+ tables at once every days for 20 hours a day with no downswing for over 3 years?

If I had to guess, I would either assume they are pokerstars bot or CIA bot gathering funds covered as random in Europe and especially in countries which oppose the US mostly Brazil and China and Russia.

I thought conspiracy threads weren't allowed here?

[Halicia]

In a tournament situation I can think of some examples of when it'd just be prudent to not call. Very specific situations.

In the tourney situation definitely. I've folded tons of times when it was already determined that a couple ppl were going to be removed regardless of how the hand turns out, so I'd rather wait it out and fight the victor afterwards.

"you'd go all in with aces pre flop"

there's very few situations where i wouldn't CALL an all in preflop, but raising all in depends on a lot more than simply 'do i have the best hand?'.

[lockedout]

In a tournament situation I can think of some examples of when it'd just be prudent to not call. Very specific situations.

It's possible if your scared of the bubble (still mathematically a bad choice), can't think of anything else.

[satimy]

The thing that I have suspected about online poker is that they fudge the odds to make bigger hands more prevalent. Bigger hands= bigger rake.

[Deleted]

In a tournament without a top-heavy payout structure (think: Satellites) it can make sense. It's still a very rare case, but for example if the top 6 win and there are ~7 people left, blinds are high, you're on a healthy stack sitting next to a couple super short stacks and the big stack at the table shoves all in...even with AA I'd probably just fold and wait for the short stacks to die off or something similar.

Like I said, very very specific situations.

Good example, but you should just delete the "probably" in that sentence. You're not calling ever in that spot. Not if you know some basic maths.
And it doesn't even have to be a sattelite. Let's say you're 3-handed at the end of a tournament (already in the money, normal pay-out structure). You have 0.6bb's and are in sb, other guy has 1bb and is auto-allin on the bb; 3rd guy has monster stack of 1000bb's and is on button and calls/jams/whatever you want to call it because it doesn't matter (he just doesn't fold). You'd fold aces there as well (mathematically correct) because if the button wins you're guaranteed 2nd place, but if you'd get it in as well and lose you only have 3rd place. And more importantly: even trippling up your stack has almost no benefit to hope to get first place given you'll be 1.8bb's vs a 999.8bb stack anyway.
Obviously extreme situation but you can lower big stack a bit to still mathematically fold. Just making a point with exaggerated numbers. Obviously if button had less than 10bb's as well you'd get it in since you could still win first place realistically.

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If that were the case, it'd show up in the millions (billions?) of hands people have stored in their trackers.

Some Poker sites have scammed people out of money before, but it's not generally in the way that people think. It's hard to fudge probabilities and such when you have very serious players tracking gigantic numbers of hands.

This is true. Some shady things have happened in online poker but the players are more savy than ever and stuff like that would in no way go unnoticed. Wrt the OP: bots aren't legal, just like in WoW.

[Rooflesstoofless]

I would wager it's due to being lucky.

I think it's because they are high.

[satimy]

If that were the case, it'd show up in the millions (billions?) of hands people have stored in their trackers.

Some Poker sites have scammed people out of money before, but it's not generally in the way that people think. It's hard to fudge probabilities and such when you have very serious players tracking gigantic numbers of hands.

Hmm thats interesting, I dont think those trackers were around when my buddy was playing 10 years ago.

[araine]

It's 12% to flop a set. You NEVER fold aces preflop.

depends on the form of game we are playing if in a tournament it can very well be the right choice to fold AA since you cant reload more $$$ if you lose and really noone would risk the entire tournament early on with AA being all in when the double up is basically meaningless anyway. Cash game on the other hand it is never going to get folded i will stack of everything and more if i had it preflop with AA since regardless of how many callers you have

[Twoddle]

depends on the form of game we are playing if in a tournament it can very well be the right choice to fold AA since you cant reload more $$$ if you lose and really noone would risk the entire tournament early on with AA being all in when the double up is basically meaningless anyway. Cash game on the other hand it is never going to get folded i will stack of everything and more if i had it preflop with AA since regardless of how many callers you have

Doubling up early in a tournament is not meaningless. Basically if you double your chipstack early you double your equity in the tournament. It has been proved many times that stacks sizes are roughly proportional to money value early on. Indeed they would be exactly proportional if it were winner-takes-all.

The calculation changes as you near the money ladder though. Then the smaller stacks become worth more per chip and the bigger stacks less per chip but not by much.

[oxymoronic]

Trust me bruh. Nobody goes down to a .05/.10 table to risk 20 bucks on pocket aces.

maybe, but if im playing for peanuts then i bought in for peanuts. so yes i would risk the $5 i came with in a heatbeat. otherwise wtf am i doing there. from experience i can tell you these bots are "smart bots" that analyze the hand and use math to determine their course of action.

[lockedout]

Good example, but you should just delete the "probably" in that sentence. You're not calling ever in that spot. Not if you know some basic maths.
And it doesn't even have to be a sattelite. Let's say you're 3-handed at the end of a tournament (already in the money, normal pay-out structure). You have 0.6bb's and are in sb, other guy has 1bb and is auto-allin on the bb; 3rd guy has monster stack of 1000bb's and is on button and calls/jams/whatever you want to call it because it doesn't matter (he just doesn't fold). You'd fold aces there as well (mathematically correct) because if the button wins you're guaranteed 2nd place, but if you'd get it in as well and lose you only have 3rd place. And more importantly: even trippling up your stack has almost no benefit to hope to get first place given you'll be 1.8bb's vs a 999.8bb stack anyway.
Obviously extreme situation but you can lower big stack a bit to still mathematically fold. Just making a point with exaggerated numbers. Obviously if button had less than 10bb's as well you'd get it in since you could still win first place realistically.

In the above scenario I am still all in with aces. If you have played a tournament and ever made it to final table, when you're short stacked like you're describing you're all in with any ace never mind two of them. Not to mention you're playing to win. The satellite scenario is a possibility if multiple players are all in before you.

[Deleted]

In the above scenario I am still all in with aces. If you have played a tournament and ever made it to final table, when you're short stacked like you're describing you're all in with any ace never mind two of them. Not to mention you're playing to win. The satellite scenario is a possibility if multiple players are all in before you.

Except that winning is almost completely unrealistic, and given how the other 2 are all-in with probably a huge range, you have a roughly 50% chance of getting 2nd place in that specific hand already by folding aces. If you get it in with your aces you have roughly 27% chance of busting in 3rd place. Just totally not worth it mathematically assuming a somewhat normal pay-out for top 3.

[Deleted]

OP: bots aren't legal, just like in WoW.

They are not allowed not illegal from what I know.

[Deleted]

They are not allowed not illegal from what I know.

Yeah sorry that's probably what I meant. Pokerstars has banned people for using them in the past.

[Khoryace]

It has become incredibly annoying to play against these bots.

[Moneypack]

probably a criminal organisation like the russian mob and how they used CSGO skins

[Deleted]

When you play online and the only tells/bluffs people can do are based on what they raise/stand/fold on, yes, it comes down to mathematics pretty quickly.

The best poker players know the math behind each hand they play, and then they also are good at seeing/reading tells, while having few of their own. Or being aware of their own and using them to their advantage, but that's just a whole different level then what is being discussed here.

Online Poker where you can't see/hear the people you are playing against is essentially just math.

There are important situations where tells matter.

The most important tell is frequency-of-response. If a player responds very quickly, then he is very unlikely to have a marginal hand which requires a deal of thought to make a correct decision. A player above micro-stakes will almost always use that time to think.

Conversely, a player who takes a long time to make decision may have a marginal hand. Or they may be faking it for effect. But even if they are faking it they tend to overdo it. You can still narrow down the permutations even if you don't know.

This information, correctly executed, is worth several big blinds per hour, per table.

Note that the bots in current usage don't use this information. It is possible to collect frequency analysis data on every player and develop a much more accurate predictor of hand strength based on this information. You could make a considerable amount of money doing that, probably millions, but it is a lot of development time, frustration and non-trivial difficulty with payment and execution.

[Khoryace]

There are important situations where tells matter.

The most important tell is frequency-of-response. If a player responds very quickly, then he is very unlikely to have a marginal hand which requires a deal of thought to make a correct decision. A player above micro-stakes will almost always use that time to think.

Conversely, a player who takes a long time to make decision may have a marginal hand. Or they may be faking it for effect. But even if they are faking it they tend to overdo it. You can still narrow down the permutations even if you don't know.

This information, correctly executed, is worth several big blinds per hour, per table.

Note that the bots in current usage don't use this information. It is possible to collect frequency analysis data on every player and develop a much more accurate predictor of hand strength based on this information. You could make a considerable amount of money doing that, probably millions, but it is a lot of development time, frustration and non-trivial difficulty with payment and execution.

Wow that is incredibly well said.