Crit as holy?

[PosPosPos]

Mastery doesn't work for HoTs, period.

It works for Rapid Renewal, which is a direct heal on every Renew cast, but it doesn't affect the Renew HoT itself nor Lightwell Renew.

And? That's has nothing to do with my point. Also, RR is removed, Renew just simply has a direct healing component now, but it's easier to understand the effects of Mastery on Renew by simply saying it works at 9% of its normal effectiveness.

This is incredibly easy to test. Summon a lightwell, unequip, then equip your gear to trick a LW Renew onto you. Does EoL heal you for anything?

:/

Not using Myllior's spreadsheet, nor HealerCalcs.



Well duh . Next, are you going to tell me I need to cast the heals for them to heal?

I am not the one making the assertion that Mastery is weaker than Versatility - you are. And I am here pointing out you are simply wrong.

If you know that the power of the stat should be judged based on the bigger picture, then do not be so shameless as to use "but if Lightwell and Renew makes up about 25-30% of your healing, that's essentially 25-30% of your healing the stat is useless for. Crit, and versatility, both increase the healing of all your spells, which is why they come out ahead. " as the pivotal argument.

[Aparthia]

And? That's has nothing to do with my point. Also, RR is removed, Renew just simply has a direct healing component now, but it's easier to understand the effects of Mastery on Renew by simply saying it works at 9% of its normal effectiveness.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=95649/rapid-renewal

The spell is quite visibly still here.

You said Mastery had 9% of its effectiveness on hots, which is demonstrably false. It doesn't increase the healing of Lightwell.

I am not the one making the assertion that Mastery is weaker than Versatility - you are. And I am here pointing out you are simply wrong.

You're making the assertion Mastery is stronger than versatility and has done nothing to show it. Both Myllior's work and Hamlet's HealerCalc will tell you that's wrong. Come back with something that isn't your foolish napkin math to show me wrong.

[Deleted]

84.75 mastery is 1% more healing (not sure it's that exact number : I have 100 mastery roughly equal 1.18% more healing in mind but you can check for it in the [6.0] Holy Priest Discussion thread).
100 haste is 1% more healing
110 crit is 1% more healing
130 versatility is 1% more healing and 0.5% less dmg

That's really not napkin math. mastery is 130/84.75 = 1.53 = 53% better than mastery for heal per point of combat stat.
It pretty clear that's what pos was stating. After that, you have to look at the "bigger picture".

Now, if you have a spell that doesn't benefit from mastery and that spell accounts for 53% of your healing then you're at the breakpoint where mastery and versatility's "relative" values are equal.

Edit :
If rapid renewal is indeed still visible on logs (don't know about that), then it's easy to figure your stat prios.

[Thirteen]

And? That's has nothing to do with my point. Also, RR is removed, Renew just simply has a direct healing component now, but it's easier to understand the effects of Mastery on Renew by simply saying it works at 9% of its normal effectiveness.

It's there, it's just one of those hidden passives.

If rapid renewal is indeed still visible on logs (don't know about that), then it's easy to figure your stat prios.

I don't think Skada/Renew log it, but WarcraftLogs does, and it's about 10-15% of Renew's total healing. People who play Serenity will get less mileage out of it, depending on how vigorously they refresh Renew.

Edit: Pulled a random Butcher log, it's around 10%-ish.

[Deleted]

84.75 mastery is 1% more healing (not sure it's that exact number : I have 100 mastery roughly equal 1.18% more healing in mind but you can check for it in the [6.0] Holy Priest Discussion thread).
100 haste is 1% more healing
110 crit is 1% more healing
130 versatility is 1% more healing and 0.5% less dmg

That's really not napkin math. mastery is 130/84.75 = 1.53 = 53% better than versatility? for heal per point of combat stat.
It pretty clear that's what pos was stating. After that, you have to look at the "bigger picture".

Now, if you have a spell that doesn't benefit from mastery and that spell accounts for 53% of your healing then you're at the breakpoint where mastery and versatility's "relative" values are equal.

Edit :
If rapid renewal is indeed still visible on logs (don't know about that), then it's easy to figure your stat prios.

Haste was recently changed to be 90 rating for 1% although haste is multiplicative so adding 90 haste rating will actually result in a >1% gain depending on buffs. Should also be careful calling it 1% more healing, haste doesn't actually increase the healing of direct heals it simply allows you to cast them faster. I realize that's pretty obvious but worth clarifying imo.
I also believe mastery is 84.5 rating, although I'm going from memory and can't check right now.

[appro]

My apologies for starting an argument.

In the original comment I said "Depending on your play style mastery can be incredibly valuable".
By this I was referring to playing in Chakra: Serenity to refresh renew on early progression or when you under gear an encounter.

It will be more valuable than it is currently when you gain access to the 4 piece set bonus due to the increased amounts of heal and PoH you will (should) be casting.
If you take Divine Insight you will have more PoM's bouncing around than in Highmaul, and therefore likely see an increased benefit from Mastery due to this as well.

I'm not trying to say that mastery is more valuable than MS (although if you cast a minimal number of renew it can be Thanks Myllior for the clarification). It may end up being more efficient than haste when you encompass spirit and mana usage. Again this entirely depends on play style, relative gear levels, raid composition etc.

What I'm trying to get it is that there is no blanket statement for which stat is better.
There are certainly some more common stat priorities but when giving advice you should try to make mention of the alternatives instead of making such vehemently definitive statements that one style is an absolute.

[Thirteen]

haste doesn't actually increase the healing of direct heals it simply allows you to cast them faster. I realize that's pretty obvious but worth clarifying imo.

It does increase the healing on Renew, Lightwell, and EoL though. And those are gonna be 25%+ of your total healing in a general boss fight.

I'm not trying to say that mastery is more valuable than MS (although if you cast a minimal number of renew it can be).

You can't afford not to cast Renew though. If you're playing in Serenity (BH/PoH/SoL) you'll want Renews rolling on at least 3-4 people at a time, just because its HPM increases drastically. And on high damage periods (eg. Tectonic Upheaval) you'll probably have it on even more people just because a single BH>BH>PoH sequence will refresh it on 5 people (4+yourselfx2).

[Deleted]

My apologies for starting an argument.
What I'm trying to get it is that there is no blanket statement for which stat is better.
There are certainly some more common stat priorities but when giving advice you should try to make mention of the alternatives instead of making such vehemently definitive statements that one style is an absolute.

Well I also apologize then. Rereading my post it's true it comes out in a brutal way. It's also true that mastery is extremely good for holy, it's just that the playstyle of the average joe raider doesn't benefit from it's whole strenght.
stats prios will certainly shift toward mastery if mana allows for DI and CoP together.

[Tomali]

The game is tuned toward cutting edge mythic raiding, which most people do not see. Appro is correct, but it is a moot point if you are not pushing progression. In this situation, it is increasingly important to maximize throughput and efficiency (ie most throughput without going oom). Mastery has the capacity to do very well in this type of situation.

If you clear heroic with your buddies, you are dealing with a different problem. You are probably looking at healing meters, and who is 'sniping' the most healing. Everything would be overhealed. Mastery would lose it's benefit. The more time you spend at <100% health, the stronger mastery becomes.

[Myllior]

I also believe mastery is 84.5 rating

The exact number is 110/1.3 = 84.6154... rating to increase Mastery by 1%. Which comes to another point about those numbers in general; they simply examine the rating required to gain 1% more of a particular stat, which isn't the same as 1% extra healing. While the numbers can be used to get a general indication of where stats lie, as soon as you start to consider pre-existing stat amounts, proportions of healing from different spell types and other things, you get into full blown stat weights.

In the original comment I said "Depending on your play style mastery can be incredibly valuable".
By this I was referring to playing in Chakra: Serenity to refresh renew on early progression or when you under gear an encounter.

I think this created a bit of confusion as the Sanctuary and Serenity play-styles were the two main play-styles for Holy for this half-tier (well, to the best of my knowledge), and both get a lot of mileage from Renew/Lightwell, even when they were used during early progression; so neither of them were particularly favourable to Mastery.
Using your own early kills as an example (well, the ones you were Holy for), the lowest contribution heal over time effects had to your effective healing was ~19.62%, for which you want practically equal amounts of Mastery and Critical Strike rating (40 more Mastery rating).
I'll admit I'm using the post-secondary healing amounts (because I don't know your stats at the time), but I'm also not explicitly considering how much Echo of Light overheals relative to your other spells. Since, in every one of those early logs, Echo of Light's overheal percentage is greater than the average from all your spells, I would be inclined to say that Mastery would be below Critical Strike.

That being said, I agree that it's worth reiterating every now and again that the weights for some stats depend quite strongly on how you're healing, at least so that people are aware that things aren't always set in stone. This is all the more relevant when such a dramatic change in the way Holy heals may just be around the corner. (If you have any insight into details of how this new healing style will function, say enough to design a basic casting pattern - priorities and fillers - it would be appreciated).

I'm not trying to say that mastery is more valuable than MS (although if you cast a minimal number of renew it can be).

A nitpick, but in a no-overheal scenario, you'll still want more Multistrike rating than Mastery rating, even if you get absolutely no healing from heal over time effects, simply because of the massive discrepancy in the base amounts of each stat (5% Multistrike vs. 16.9% Mastery when raid-buffed). Of course, if you somehow manage to get a lower overheal percentage for Echo of Light than the rest of your healing, that would push it up.

PS: I'm sure I'll read over this later and realise I've been incredibly rude somewhere in the above. If that is the case, I'm sorry; it was definitely not intended.

[appro]

This is all the more relevant when such a dramatic change in the way Holy heals may just be around the corner. (If you have any insight into details of how this new healing style will function, say enough to design a basic casting pattern - priorities and fillers - it would be appreciated).

Don't take this as absolute, but I assume in 6.1 it will be:
When playing in serenity with 4 set tier its likely PoM will become the top priority spell before high periods of damage. The idea being that during high periods of damage you want to have as many out as possible for maximum serendipity procs (also PoM is does a very nice amount of healing itself). This is due to PoH with 2x serendipity being our strongest non-cd spell.

There is an arguement for taking Divine Insight for increased PoM procs but obviously this comes at the cost of ToF which will see quite high up time on a number of progression fights. I had 49.44% on Kromog last night. You're welcome to browse but please excuse my poor solace usage, I take it as insurance but when I knowing I have enough mana to last the fight I favor heals instead - also worth noting we had carries for extra gear drops on most fights. PI may have its place for burst healing or mana conservation but ultimately I expect the best talent will vary per fight and per player (I think this is a good thing).

This applies to the 100 talents as well. The buff to CoP was nice but it may not be enough to see much use due to WoM synergising with 2 and 4 set tier so well.
CoP with DI I'm uncertain about. It is potentially a solid increase to throughput with highly likely serendipity procs for more CoP, then more procs etc but it comes at the cost of reliability/predictability as well as CoP requiring low HP target to pull ahead of PoH/Wom.

I apologise for not being more concise with a rotation of sorts but its incredibly difficult to provide a basic casting pattern as a healer. This particularly true on progression where things go wrong quite a bit and play style is more about reacting/preparing for accidents and doing anything you can to achieve a kill as opposed to maintaining a 'perfect' rotation. There are often times when whats needed isn't the most efficient choice, but is the safest - talking about raid preservation > personal numbers here of which holy is great at due to its versatility.

Having said that, I think its safe to assume PoM will be the #1 preferred spell with little else changing (unless DI + CoP finds great use), renew as filler for more WoM if you take it that talent. Should see more hard casting spells (BH/flash/PoH/CoP) due to increased mana regen trinkets particularly in serenity.
I expect the ideal play style will be to maximise the number of PoM on the raid before high raid damage to insure as many serendipity procs as possible during the dmg, and during the dmg itself will be hard casting PoH/CoP with 2x serendipity if possible (mechanics may prevent).

Edit: Forgot to mention that PoM glyph looks like a strong 3rd glyph with 2 set tier, potentially giving us 3 default glyphs (renew/BH/PoM)

[Myllior]

Thank you very much for that! I know it's difficult to pin down any sort of pattern for healing, especially for a specialisation with as varied abilities as Holy, but what you've put up is greatly appreciated. I didn't even look at the Solace usage because I agree with you regarding it; if you enough mana to finish the fight, then it's more important to focus on actual healing.

I guess I'm just trying to get a sort of bare-bones pattern to work with that isn't too unrealistic (in some scenarios at least) so that I can roughly see where Haste and Mastery will sit for Holy, similar to what I've done previously for Discipline. I know that was an extremely limited analysis, and such a one would also be limited for Holy, but until the Mythic logs start pouring in it won't be easy to pinpoint where Mastery lies, and Haste is a far worse beast altogether...

...I should really learn how to use SimCraft.

Thanks again!

[appro]

Happy to help, sorry I can't be of more assistance just yet. Mythic logs are only a few days away now.
I'd expect stat priority to still be MS > haste > crit > mastery > vers until 4 set and mythic. With 4 set in mythic playing serenity I'm not sure if mastery will become quite as high as haste is for raw throughput for most people, but if it is to happen that is the point I expect to see it overtake haste.

[Kelade]

After you get your 4pc, crit becomes the worst stat with versatility. So only take it if the item is an upgrade in other departments

[Comfort]

After you get your 4pc, crit becomes the worst stat with versatility. So only take it if the item is an upgrade in other departments

With 4 set crit stays pretty viable, as you still cast a lot of renew even with the 4 set proc.

[Thirteen]

With 4 set crit stays pretty viable, as you still cast a lot of renew even with the 4 set proc.

Crit is only bad because other stats are better. Multistrike is always better. Mastery is better with the set bonus. Haste is better as long as you're casting renew. That leaves crit and vers as the least desirable stats.

[VigilantRose]

Crit is only bad because other stats are better. Multistrike is always better. Mastery is better with the set bonus. Haste is better as long as you're casting renew. That leaves crit and vers as the least desirable stats.

This.

Multistrike is the most desirable secondary, but the variation between secondaries is not high. This tends to mean that whenever you're faced with a choice over gear, you choose iLvl first, then multistrike if iLvl is equal and only then make a decision between two pieces that have the same iLvl and also have multistrike.

You also have to consider that there are situations where Mastery is the best non-multistrike stat and situations where Haste is the best non-multistrike stat. However, one of Mastery or Haste will be better than Critical/Versatility in any given situation.

[Comfort]

Crit is only bad because other stats are better. Multistrike is always better. Mastery is better with the set bonus. Haste is better as long as you're casting renew. That leaves crit and vers as the least desirable stats.

The issue the OP has is he has a lot of crit gear, he shouldn't feel its a problem just because other stats are better.

I used the term viable for a reason.

[Deleted]

You also have to consider that there are situations where Mastery is the best non-multistrike stat and situations where Haste is the best non-multistrike stat. However, one of Mastery or Haste will be better than Critical/Versatility in any given situation.

Likewise, crit can be better than haste or mastery depending on the spells you are casting. In this sense, perhaps crit is not such a bad stat to have if you're a tier token away from a change in play style.

Theoretical healing from mastery, crit and vers can be compared directly for each spell or a sequence of spells, while haste is different. That said, versatility and haste would be the best in terms of not overhealing? We can't see directly overheal from crit or mutlistrike heals in logs, but I'd guess that crit and mastery both have more potential to overheal than MS, crit might overheal less than mastery when damage is bursty and mastery might overheal less than crit when damage is pulsing. Mastery overheals more as content is outgeared, at which point some may prefer to cut mastery back in favor of stats that let you heal swipe a bit more - something to bear in mind if bad luck means you're slow getting a tier set together! We know that multistrike is always good and for renew spam so is haste. Once I have a tier set, I may just favor anything with multistrike and not worry too much about what comes with it, but hey, my guild is very casual :/

[Haaggis]

Ahhh the stat battle. All I can suggest is looking at holy priests on world of logs and you will see which stats work best for each fight and then take the average of which one comes out on top for the majority of fights. Always exclude the top 5 healers though as it could just be a one off outlier.