What are we doing wrong: Imperator HC last phase/second transition

[Sonnillon]

We've been at the boss for some time now and the issue we're having is that when the second transition ends and 4th phase start we loose half the raid to the big add's pulsing AoE and then it's a wipe.

We start intermission 2 with BL when Reaver comes, burn it down, then take on one mage. We cannot kill the second mage before boss moves onto phase 4, barely manage with lust to kill the first one. And at start oh phase 4 raid dies.

We have tried leaving the second mage up, didn't change anything as still the big adds pulsing AoE and explosion from small adds finished people off who were low.
We have tried tanking the Reaver on top of one of the mages for cleaving, killed the tanks.
We have tried killing the Reaver as lower priority (was with lower gear levels and didn't try yesterday) killed the tanks.
Also have gone the way that melee stay on mage while ranged attack the Reaver, that way we barely get the first mage down before boss goes to phase 4.
If we kept our lowest DPS hunter on the transition small adds, the Mages/Reaver died even slower (did that one Thursday's attempt)
When we had our lowest range DPS(s) switch to the adds once Mage(s) were dead, while the rest focused on boss, didn't change the outcome of big add killing us with AoE while small adds exploding.
As far as I understood the healers they are going to the end of transition 2 without any major CDs available to be used for the "AoE all small adds down with defensive" strat.

Can anyone say what the hell are we doing wrong that we keep dieing to the big adds damage? I do believe that the later pulls in the evening people finally started spreading properly to avoid Mages fixiates.
Do we need more healers? On Thursday we had 7 healers for 18 people and in all fairness we made better progression when we dropped down to 6 healers.
Yesterday we had 4 healers for 15 people and then it felt that we needed more healing, specially later on when raid was low, not healed up fast enough and that led to wipe probably. We removed Fläsktrollet evenings last few pulls (steadily lowest overall DPS), but it didn't change absolutely anything...., the adds died (or well didn't die) at the same time, boss transitioned at the same times, so it wasn't the DPS issue as well.

Thursday logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...JzC3K#fight=12 - very last pull was made with 6 healers instead of 7
Yesterdays logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...jB3xX#fight=10 - from the 7th pull we're on DPS less

I understand that bit more DPS is needed, but that really doesn't explain why we keep dieing in the start of phase 4, when in theory we have the numbers to kill the boss....

[Kagitaar]

Are dps saving CDs to use with Lust? Who is killing the small adds? Are dps wasting single target trying to dps small adds? In Phase 4, are you killing the add quickly? Are the dps getting run over by orbs or murdering each other with the nova?

[Tradu]

We usually get Reaver and the first Warmage down, and the 2nd Warmage to maybe 50% before the boss comes back up, at which point we blow up the small adds and go back to the Warmage, only switching off the Warmage once it's dead or the big Aberration spawns(which we kill, then go back to the Warmage if it's still alive)
The way we deal with the end of the intermissions is stack the small adds and the boss, pop a bunch of raid CDs(Spirit Link, Devo Aura, Tranq and some of our many Amplify Magics) and blow them up. People also need to use their own defensives.
Other than that it's really just about getting clean transition phases, which is only going to work if people save their DPS CDs and pop potions for the Reaver. During the "normal" phases, the big add needs to be focused down ASAP, and people not switching quickly enough makes it a lot harder on the healers than it needs to be.
Your DPS is quite a lot lower than the DPS we killed it with the first time(Our first kill for comparison) as well, so that's something you might want to look at. Our average raid itemlevels are fairly similar, you just have more geared tanks than we did.

[ThePants999]

Aye, the DPS check on this boss is essentially whether you can deal with the intermission adds before the P4 big add arrives. If you're not managing it then it's just about looking for ways to up that intermission DPS. Remember, DPS outside the intermission phases is barely relevant.

[Tradu]

Aye, the DPS check on this boss is essentially whether you can deal with the intermission adds before the P4 big add arrives. If you're not managing it then it's just about looking for ways to up that intermission DPS. Remember, DPS outside the intermission phases is barely relevant.

Killing the big adds in the normal phases at a reasonable speed is pretty nice as well, though(for your healers)

[Gaidax]

What my guild does - Kill 2 Warmages first... then kill Reaver when boss is already down (and don't ask me how our tanks manage that, maybe they are tanking Einsteins or something).

Our DPS is real good though for HC, many guys pushing 30k and I can push up to 35k as Demo.

Another viable option is - kill Reaver, kill Warmage, damage second Warmage until Arcane add in P4 pops up - kill Arcane add - kill Warmage - clean small adds that spawned on Arcane add death.

[GoKs]

Adds > Boss. All I can say is.... adds adds adds adds. Would help if you could get your hunters to save crows for abberation adds and reaver. What I am about to say might not be the best for dps numbers but it sure helps getting the adds down. Me and my fellow hunter only use our crows on the adds, yes you have allot of down time and lose allot of dps on the boss, but the adds are just so freaking important. The reaver and warmages we pop our crows @ +- 60% of their hp so that the crows can be up for the next add aswell.

The small adds during transitions we just stack and bubble,tranq and nuke then spread, if last warmage is not dead we have melee on boss and ranged kill mage since we cant seem to manage that extra dmg from the mage for too long so we kill it. Last phase spread and focus big add, and the small ones, the boss will tumble over from the cleave.

Oh yea, last phase try not to catch the balls, it is not baseball.

[Deleted]

Speaking as a fellow 6/7 HC person...

Our issues have been getting to 2nd transition with healers with enough mana to see out the rest of the fight. Also, 2nd transition itself of course.

I cannot stress enough how important it is that everyone in the raid understands the following statement.

Avoid all avoidable damage. This is more important than anything else in this fight.

When you get to 2nd transition it is a simple burn phase, getting through the adds as fast as possible. We've been having most success with the following kill order;
Reaver > 1 Mage > small adds > start 2nd mage > boss starts P4, stay on 2nd mage, big add spawns, nuke down big add > ranged finish mage, melee stay on boss.

This is the phase that will get easier with better gear.

[Skottz]

We are killing Reaver first, one Warmage afterwards. At that point, ranged is able to take some percents of second mage while we move to the middle of the room.

Our tanks are killing some of the small adds throughout this phase. They always ask, if we are ready for next dmg or just announce it When we run to the middle we use rogue bomb, barrier, spirit link totem, devotion aura, anti-magic zone + tranquility and healing tide totem . I really don't know which of those actually stack, but we don't wipe

Only risky moment is person with fixate from second mage who forgets to run out of the middle.

After finishing small adds we move back to range so we don't spawn mine under the boss. Melee's immediately burn Abberation while ranged finish off the second mage. After that we generally spread out (not benefiting from aoe healing circles anymore) because of lightning orbs and exploding force nova.

Many Mythic kills involve killing mages and finishing reaver afterwards. You can try that route aswell but beware of his shockwave and crush armor (which requires tank switch if tanked for longer period of time).

[Deleted]

Just play it save.
Most problems start when people try to copy strats from worldfirst vids on youtube. You don't need to drag mobs around to increase cleave damage. This will only make the fight even more complicated and harder to heal. Take one more healer than you would have for the other bosses depending on your raid size.

1) BL on start of 2nd transition, pots for every DD as well. Range are stacked, fixated targets move out.
2) About 3 DD stay on the arcane adds to keep their number low. Soften them with AOE but kill them individually.
3) All the remaining DD: Nuke the reaver fast, he is dangerous and will probably kill a tank if left alive for too long.
4) After that kill one of the warmages.
5) If you have sufficient dps you can injure the 2nd one already, but it is unrealistic to kill him for an average casual guild before the boss becomes active again.

This should get you stable into the last phase. Now: Don't panic. Everything is ok, even when the remaining warmage is at 100%.

Way to go:

6) As soon as an arcane aberation spawns - NUKE it. No dps may stay on the warmage; there is no need to kick him. Spread out your raid so that there is no splash damage from the mage. This will also be good for the force novas.
7) When the arcane aberation is down, AOE the remnants FAST.

The execution of 6 & 7 decide if your healers go oom or not.

Whenever there is no arcane add up you go back to the warmage and slap him. He will die eventually. Just rememer 6 & 7!

When the 2nd warmage is down and your raid is still (mostly) alive, you will win.


Something else: You will probably lose your melee to the force novas in the last phase. Tell them to spread out several seconds before a force nova starts. Play it save! This is no damage race!

[Skottz]

Btw. stacking Gorians is never good idea. Dominance Aura of Mages buffs their allies with 100% dmg and 100% haste.

http://www.wowdb.com/spells/174126-dominance-aura

[bmjclark]

Just looking at your logs it seems many of your raiders aren't second potting. They should be saving their second pots for that second intermission to line up with lust (some aren't even potting at all, that's really not acceptable when your having issues clearing the intermission in time). They should also be saving their cooldowns for the intermission.

Another issue is that on most of the attempts i looked at, someone was stepping on a mine. This cannot happen, ever. If it doesn't directly cause a wipe by killing a few people it'll hurt your healers mana a lot. People are also taking a lot more damage than they should be to force nova according to the problems tab on warcraftlogs (im not sure how accurate that is though). Everyone has to be spread out in phase 4 for the force nova or it'll kill everyone that's stacked. It's pretty unforgiving with that. Anyone who can blink through it should be to save your healers mana. Also, the big add has to die even if it pops before the warmage is dead.

[Deja Thoris]

Is your paladin tank a clicker or was he afk?

In 10 minutes he managed 54 avengers shields even though he had 45 procs (free shields). He should have been able to crack out over 100. Same with crusader strike. With a bit of haste he should use it about every 4.5 seconds. He used it about every 8 seconds.

He also barely manages to do any damage to the adds that spawn even though palas are aoe kings. To be honest hes more like half a raid member with that performance.


Anyway, root cause of your wipes: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&target=43
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&target=43

You pointed it out yourself, add that aoes you failed to kill. It's top prio above ANYTHING else. Look at how much aoe damage that single add does https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=158705

[Sonnillon]

Adds > Boss. All I can say is.... adds adds adds adds. Would help if you could get your hunters to save crows for abberation adds and reaver. What I am about to say might not be the best for dps numbers but it sure helps getting the adds down. Me and my fellow hunter only use our crows on the adds, yes you have allot of down time and lose allot of dps on the boss, but the adds are just so freaking important. The reaver and warmages we pop our crows @ +- 60% of their hp so that the crows can be up for the next add aswell.

As our hunters get all the dirty jobs anyway I can ask them to save the crows (if they are using the talent) for the stuff mentioned above.

When you get to 2nd transition it is a simple burn phase, getting through the adds as fast as possible. We've been having most success with the following kill order;
Reaver > 1 Mage > small adds > start 2nd mage > boss starts P4, stay on 2nd mage, big add spawns, nuke down big add > ranged finish mage, melee stay on boss.

This is actually a very good point to try out. Should make sure that none of the transition adds are up when the Abberation dies.
I guess that's where I went wrong initially by delaying killing the big add when the intermission adds were still up, cause didn't want people to AoE the intermission adds down along with the ones which come from Abberation (knowing that when people blow the intermission adds up at once the damage will be huge).

Range are stacked, fixated targets move out.

Not gonna work for us. After people finally started staying spread on the intermission, the splash damage from Mage's went down significantly. So staying stacked is something I will not tell my people to do, spreading reasonably and keeping your range radar green is my way to go.

About 3 DD stay on the arcane adds to keep their number low.

Again something which we cannot afford unfortunately, taking even one DPS off from a Mage means that the mage lives that much longer or the Reaver lives that much longer. Not worth the risk IMHO.

You will probably lose your melee to the force novas in the last phase. Tell them to spread out several seconds before a force nova starts.

This also a good point to point out to people, but we usually have 2-3 melee only + 1 tank in melee ranged when Nova comes, I (bear) will be away from boss with Mark of Chaos anyway most of the time.

Just looking at your logs it seems many of your raiders aren't second potting. They should be saving their second pots for that second intermission to line up with lust (some aren't even potting at all, that's really not acceptable when your having issues clearing the intermission in time). They should also be saving their cooldowns for the intermission.

I will point it out next time we tackle him.

Another issue is that on most of the attempts i looked at, someone was stepping on a mine. This cannot happen, ever. If it doesn't directly cause a wipe by killing a few people it'll hurt your healers mana a lot. People are also taking a lot more damage than they should be to force nova according to the problems tab on warcraftlogs (im not sure how accurate that is though). Everyone has to be spread out in phase 4 for the force nova or it'll kill everyone that's stacked.

Few mines were random incidents of bad luck - tank got ressed on top a mine, tank got knocked while moving with Chaos into the Mine, healer lagged out for a monent... But some were just people not paying attention, the mines have improved from the time we started working on him.
I do believe that only couple of times when we lived long enough to get the Nova in phase 4 it was a wipe anyway and people, if I recall, were on really low HP to start with.

But I guess if we change the way how we handle the adds and Abberation in 2nd transtion/4th phase we could make better progress then we have so far.

[Skottz]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...3#type=summary

Link above is our first kill of imperator HC. It is far from perfect so you can compare But as I looked up your logs again I found one similarity with our wipes ...

Imperator Margok is scaling terribly for smaller raid groups.

If it is remotely possible. Get some people. Closer to 20 the easier this fight will be. We were progressing him in 14ppl and 4 healers were struggling with mana. Those same 4 healers were enough for our first kill in 19ppl. Since then we had more-healing kills, but additional healers werent contributing that much (but dps grew singificantly with following resets). Faster you kill things, less dmg you take (abberation, warmage, reaver). But generally (at least on this boss), bigger the raid, easier the fight.

[CgTitan5]

In my group we had an enhance shaman on the little adds at all times. We also lusted and saved some cds for the reaver, then we burned the warmages. We interrupted them as much as we could, and people who were fixated ran out. Then we moved onto the big arcane add and boss. It does seem like a lot of dps is needed to get the warmages down quick. I am not sure if this strat is great or not, but the group I'm in managed to kill Heroic Imperator several times.

[Sonnillon]

He also barely manages to do any damage to the adds that spawn even though palas are aoe kings.

Anyway, root cause of your wipes: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&target=43
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&target=43

You pointed it out yourself, add that aoes you failed to kill. It's top prio above ANYTHING else. Look at how much aoe damage that single add does https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=158705

Eeehm... I just pick off all the adds from him with Thrash and chase the loose adds down, so some of time the adds are in my tow when I move around. In intermission 2 his responsibility is the Reaver which I tell him to keep away from the adds, I've seen too many adds blow up at once when adds+Reaver are together, I'd rather not have that. Once Reaver is dead, he'll help on adds.

I imagined that the Abberation being up for far to long was the issue, but I just have to change the approach to add order in second intermission/phase 4. Cause only on few pulls (the later ones if I recall) I told people to just ignore the mage, 1-2 people on small intermission adds and rest on boss. However it was clearly my mistake for having them kill the small adds as prio over the Abberation, cause didn't want the Abberation adds AoE down together with the intermission adds.

[Monoxyde]

leave one of the mages up and finish off the small adds then boss.

[Sonnillon]

Well Skottz, I have 2-4 people along who are not from guild, but my friends, but not really keen in inviting strangers to wipefest of an evening. Invite people, then they leave as we suck (which well... is true ) and then we find some more... endless circle which waste time between pulls IMHO. Not easy to get as high of number of people as we did have when the raid went live (20-25), not to get some on Mon/Tue is a feat, specially healers. I do agree that some things are made easier with higher number of people around.

- - - Updated - - -

Either this

leave one of the mages up and finish off the small adds then boss.

Or this

Reaver > 1 Mage > small adds > start 2nd mage > boss starts P4, stay on 2nd mage, big add spawns, nuke down big add > ranged finish mage, melee stay on boss.

Is the thing what probably will stop us from dieing to the big add in phase 4, though I would still prefer to kill the mage to lessen the chaos in the chaotic phase.... Once we stop dieing to that simple thing, dealing with the rest should go easier.

[GoKs]

Like I said, keep ranged on mage and melee on boss, if abberation add spawns, range switch, melee doesnt have to move, once aberation is down, kill the small adds with melee cleave and ranged can focus mage again. If the small adds take too long to die and becomes troublesome, take only 1 or 2 ranged for the mage, the rest on add duty.