Questions regarding resto gear in BRF and BIS List

[nightfalls]

So with your logic, during progression I should spam heals because I have available mana, regardless of people's HP.

During progression if people's HP tend to stick around the high end you should consider dropping a healer. If you're in a guild that doesn't do that, well, do whatever you want, because it probably doesn't really matter.

You still haven't given a single actual argument for why throughput outweighs regen. If you aren't spamming heals because everyone has high HP, you don't really need to go full "hero-mode" with throughput either, do you? So obviously I'm making an assumption people's HP bars tend to dip.

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Not sure if you know what Harmony states.

Huh? Harmony? What's that...

[Deleted]

Well, you guys might be having issues with regen, some druids do not.

and it isn't a "narrow-minded" statement at all. Intellect is priority number one. It always has been. If you're not having mana issues, guess what? You go with the Int trinkets.

It's not really rocket science.

Never met a druid that had too much mana during Mythic Imperator, Honestly if your not having mana issues then either:

A. Not pulling your weight,
B. Your DPS is really high and so fights end quickly
C. Your not doing mythic content

We have no "regen" filler so honestly we need to take all the spirit possible.

Just my 2c.

[nectarine]

Never met a druid that had too much mana during Mythic Imperator, Honestly if your not having mana issues then either:

A. Not pulling your weight,
B. Your DPS is really high and so fights end quickly
C. Your not doing mythic content

We have no "regen" filler so honestly we need to take all the spirit possible.

Just my 2c.

I agree with this statement. I sit at about 1200 spirit, and 30% mastery (10% haste) - and will probably get more. But especially during progression (heroic blackhand, I have already killed maidens) requires you to cast all of the time.

Int trinkets have a spot - for my offspec, and maybe farm. People are going to make mistakes, and your mana bar will suffer. 1 slag bomb on heroic blackhand pretty much wrecks your melee + tank if he is close enough. Any learning problem = mana spent. Unless you're not healing them, sure - get int.

[Enzymic]

This is the BiS list I just made. It may have some sub-optimal pieces. Let me know if you have suggestions!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...jK0/edit#gid=0

P.S. I found that the tier pieces had better stats than the off-pieces. For example, I chose the tier helm (Crit/Haste) over Sorka's Nightshade Cowl (Mastery/MS). I don't care for the 4-Piece at all, I just ended up using those pieces anyways.

[Ctee]

There was a haste buff recently that made Haste the better stat than Mastery. They are still close, but Haste wins. It is the better stat right now.

I would love to see proof. Until then I'm sticking with mastery > haste.

[Enzymic]

I would love to see proof. Until then I'm sticking with mastery > haste.

There's like a 1000 page long thread about Haste vs Mastery after the buff. I'm sure you could find it pretty easily.

[Thalur]

I would love to see proof. Until then I'm sticking with mastery > haste.

You might want to read this: http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...te-vs-mastery/

[Deleted]

I have 120 spirit from gear with 640 hourglass + candle and am healing heroics + mythic highmaul just fine

... dude...
/e: to elaborate: those are regen trinkets, you might not know it because they don't have passive spirit, but I swear they are regen trinkets :3

[theburned]

My guild asked us to present our BiS lists, and this is what I've come up with:

Weapon: Inferno Flame Staff Gruul
Bracers: Squire's Electroplated Bracers Operator Thogar
Ring 1: Spellbound Runic Band of Infinite Preservation Legendary Quest
Ring 2 (no spirit, best stats): Uk'urogg's Corrupted Seal Iron Maidens
Ring 2 (spirit, worse stats): Six-Eyed Band Hans'gar and Franzok
Boots: Iron-Flecked Sandals Trash Loot
Belt: Girdle of Unconquered Glory Hans'gar and Franzok
Trinket 1: Darmac's Unstable Talisman Beastlord Darmac
Trinket 2: Blackiron Micro Crucible Blackhand
Neck (no spirit, best stats): Gruul's Lip Ring - Gruul
Neck (spirit, worse stats): Talisman of the Fomor Kromog
Back (no spirit, best stats): Runefrenzy Greatcloak Kromog
Back (spirit): Flame Infusion Drape Beastlord Darmac
Chest (not tier): Unrendable Wolfhide Robes Beastlord Darmic
Helm (tier): Living Wood Headpiece Kromog
Legs (tier): Living Wood Legguards The Blast Furnace
Gloves (tier): Living Wood Grips Iron Maidens
Shoulders (tier): [Living Wood Spaulders Operator Thogar

A few questions..

1.) Huge question. Why does our spirit gear have our worst stats? Aside from the cape off beast lord, our rings and necks with spirit on them have completely garbage stats like crit and no haste. What do we choose here? Spirit vs a haste/mastery combo on a neck..

and I just double checked, all highmaul gear with spirit (minus the force nova cloak off imperator) has either haste or mastery on it. Why is there a sudden change now in BRF?

For ex, the rings. The ring off Iron Maidens has haste and mastery. The ring off hans'gar and fronz has spirit and ... multistrike. wtf? I know it's not our worst stat but why give us multistrike? the ring off iron maidens looks way more attractive. So I should be hurting because I want the ring with our best stats on it?

2.) Is this list accurate? I just made it up so I'm open to suggestions.

3.) It looks like tier is going to be obtained regardless if using 4 piece or not because of the gear having better stats overall if going for haste build?(which > mastery atm).

If you manage to get enough mastery, multstrike will be a better stat, for single item pieces, meaning if you get 2 pieces with multistrike on them you have reached your budged, and not sure why you don't suggest 3 non-tier pieces. Especially considering how much multistrike there is on them.

[Tiberria]

It's a shortsighted statement to say that INT > Spirit always. In fact, I would argue that until you're at the point where you can afford SoTF-WG on cooldown and fill all of your other GCDs with Rejuvs (plus keeping Harmony/LB/WM up), Spirit beats Int on any fight where the healing actually matters. Given typical overhealing levels (and the value of on demand burst), being able to afford to cast WG more often is almost always going to be more effective than having it hit harder. There will be exceptions like fights with a lot of down time and only short periods of actual healing requirements, but on any long fight with high healing requirements (i.e. most of Mythic progression), more mana longevity tends to trump more throughput.

There is no way we will reach the point of being able to afford SM-WG on cooldown and then fill every other GCD with Rejuvs, etc at any attainable regen level on 6+ minute fights. Therefore, it is almost always better to go for Spirit in every available slot and double regen trinkets. If you don't have regen problems, you are either using too many healers, or not casting WG aggressively enough.

Also, it doesn't matter all that much that the Spirit items don't have ideal other secondary stats on them. The nice thing about Resto Druid stats is that while haste and mastery are the best secondaries, the difference between Haste/Mastery/Multistrike/Crit/Versatility is very small - probably no more than 15% total. The lesser secondary stats are hardly so terrible that it makes sense to avoid Spirit gear to avoid having those stats. I would take a Spirit/Versatility cloak/ring/neck anyday over a Haste/Mastery one.

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If you manage to get enough mastery, multstrike will be a better stat, for single item pieces, meaning if you get 2 pieces with multistrike on them you have reached your budged, and not sure why you don't suggest 3 non-tier pieces. Especially considering how much multistrike there is on them.

We are never going to be reasonably able to stack enough mastery (or haste or any other secondary stat) to reach the point where we have so much of one stat that the general stat priority (generally haste>=mastery>crit>multstrike>versatility) flips order.

Also, it is far from clear that Multistrike is the best stat after Haste and Mastery. I would argue that Crit is in fact superior. 100 Multistrike provides the same gain to raw healing as 100 Crit does, plus Crit has the secondary effect of increasing Living Seed healing. Living Seed isn't a huge factor, but it's enough to push Crit over Multistrike when they give the same benefit per itemization point and MS doesn't have any secondary benefits.

[theburned]

It's a shortsighted statement to say that INT > Spirit always. In fact, I would argue that until you're at the point where you can afford SoTF-WG on cooldown and fill all of your other GCDs with Rejuvs (plus keeping Harmony/LB/WM up), Spirit beats Int on any fight where the healing actually matters. Given typical overhealing levels (and the value of on demand burst), being able to afford to cast WG more often is almost always going to be more effective than having it hit harder. There will be exceptions like fights with a lot of down time and only short periods of actual healing requirements, but on any long fight with high healing requirements (i.e. most of Mythic progression), more mana longevity tends to trump more throughput.

There is no way we will reach the point of being able to afford SM-WG on cooldown and then fill every other GCD with Rejuvs, etc at any attainable regen level on 6+ minute fights. Therefore, it is almost always better to go for Spirit in every available slot and double regen trinkets. If you don't have regen problems, you are either using too many healers, or not casting WG aggressively enough.

Also, it doesn't matter all that much that the Spirit items don't have ideal other secondary stats on them. The nice thing about Resto Druid stats is that while haste and mastery are the best secondaries, the difference between Haste/Mastery/Multistrike/Crit/Versatility is very small - probably no more than 15% total. The lesser secondary stats are hardly so terrible that it makes sense to avoid Spirit gear to avoid having those stats. I would take a Spirit/Versatility cloak/ring/neck anyday over a Haste/Mastery one.

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We are never going to be reasonably able to stack enough mastery (or haste or any other secondary stat) to reach the point where we have so much of one stat that the general stat priority (generally haste>=mastery>crit>multstrike>versatility) flips order.

Also, it is far from clear that Multistrike is the best stat after Haste and Mastery. I would argue that Crit is in fact superior. 100 Multistrike provides the same gain to raw healing as 100 Crit does, plus Crit has the secondary effect of increasing Living Seed healing. Living Seed isn't a huge factor, but it's enough to push Crit over Multistrike when they give the same benefit per itemization point and MS doesn't have any secondary benefits.

baseline you have 5% multistrike which is a 3% diminishing returns. crit leaves you with 10% diminishing returns before even starting with the stat.
110 multistrike = 1% healing increase
88 mastery = 1% healing increase
mastery has around 30% at reasonable gear levels, avoiding most multistrike you will end up at around 6-8% so lets assume 8% (8%*0.6) 5.4% diminishing returns vs 30% and you are starting to reach a lvl where mastery is only ahead of multistrike by 1-2%, with the BRF gear consisting of quite a lot more mastery than Highmaul, thus swapping out things like spire of tectus it will reach lower values of multistrike, and higher level of mastery.
35% and still around 8% multi. Multistrike will be more valuable for a single piece of gear.
Though with the vast amount of Multistrike on tier pieces and tier pieces it will be a closer choice.

my entire point though isn't that you should stack multistrike, nor that it is actually the preferred stat over mastery/haste, but the fact that you should not whine over having a stat, that is so close in comparison to mastery at normal values, to be on a few role specific pieces.
multistrike also has quite low rng factor when you get around 10% with hots and so on, multistrike also benefits every ability and talent, unlike mastery, which also requires to SOME extent maintenance.

[nightfalls]

Also, it is far from clear that Multistrike is the best stat after Haste and Mastery. I would argue that Crit is in fact superior. 100 Multistrike provides the same gain to raw healing as 100 Crit does, plus Crit has the secondary effect of increasing Living Seed healing. Living Seed isn't a huge factor, but it's enough to push Crit over Multistrike when they give the same benefit per itemization point and MS doesn't have any secondary benefits.

I don't really agree with this. LS is not only a small factor, I see it as almost a non-factor.

There's very few abilities that actually proc LS, and by far the primary one is going to be Regrowth. The thing is, Regrowth even without the glyph already has a 70% base crit chance (with 0 crit rating), which means that its crit scaling is going to be terrible, even counting LS (going from 70% to 80% crit chance is a very marginal % gain than going from 0% to 10% for instance). With the glyph, it obviously has no crit scaling.

Swiftmend and HT are just such a small contributor to overall output that I'd hardly see the Living Seed from them as anything significant.

[Drefan]

OP's bis list looks good!
Not much to complain about, the only thing I can say is that you should want to have Auto-Repairing Autoclave as your bis trinket with Elementalist's Shielding totem as your second.

[Ctee]

You might want to read this: http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...te-vs-mastery/

Taken from that link:

"Conclusion

While the problem is an interesting one, and it was a great chance to touch on lots of points of healing theory in the process of a practical problem, the goal was to have a clear answer for people. And from my perspective we do: there is convincing support for haste as a generally recommended stat for Resto Druids.

With the analysis of this post in mind, we can construct a situation where you’d prefer mastery. Generally, one where:

HPM is your only concern (you are never in a rush to top people off and always have ample time to use high-efficiency heals),
Tranquility is of such importance that you’re inclined to alter your setup for that spell alone,
You’re not using Dream of Cenarius, and
You’re maintaining 100% Harmony uptime.
The latter two are standard assumptions that seem odd to call out, I know. But full-blown endurance tests, the situations we’re talking about, are precisely where they might fail to hold, and either of them can somewhat undermine the value of mastery.

I don’t deny the possibility of such a situation, but it’s an edge case at best. And where it applies, the edge to mastery is slight. The most serious players reading this can feel free to keep the possibility in mind, and hopefully this post arms you with a great deal of detail in making the evaluation of when it arises."

I'm a little confused because isn't the goal to keep harmony up as close to 100% of the time as possible? Usually top resto's log >90% uptime on harmony per fight, making this conclusion point in the direction that mastery has the slight edge.

Am I wrong? Also, why did all too resto's stack mastery for HM progression?

[jahoosuphat]

Am I wrong? Also, why did all too resto's stack mastery for HM progression?

I would assume because all of aforementioned top resto druid's were progressing before the haste buff. As mentioned before you can already see a lot of top druids switching to haste gems/enchants.

[Ctee]

I would assume because all of aforementioned top resto druid's were progressing before the haste buff. As mentioned before you can already see a lot of top druids switching to haste gems/enchants.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ec=Restoration

I wouldn't say a lot

[Deleted]

I'm a little confused because isn't the goal to keep harmony up as close to 100% of the time as possible? Usually top resto's log >90% uptime on harmony per fight, making this conclusion point in the direction that mastery has the slight edge.

I think it's more of a general statement, that if mastery happens to drop at times it loses its edge.
The endurance test statement refers to DoC I guess. DoC Wrath is the most mana-efficient heal there is, 0 mana cost, and gains no benefit from mastery, but fully scales with haste. So in a 'HPM > all' scenario haste wins out, because you'd only be casting DoC Wrath. Since that produces shit HPS and everyone around you will die if you only use that, you gotta look at the big picture. The next best spells when it comes to HPM are hots, which scale better with haste than with mastery (HPM wise).
That's why picking single paragraphs from Hamlets post - or the haste vs mastery discussion as a whole - makes little sense.
/edit: I only have my CM gear calculations at hand, but for my profile the only spells that benefit HPM-wise from gearing Mastery>Haste are HT (wayne), Rg (low % for raiders, HPM doesn't matter for CMs), SM (way too little healing overall to matter) and Tranq. And there are people that base their whole argument pro-mastery on buffing Tranq. Whatever works for you

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ec=Restoration
I wouldn't say a lot

6/10 all stars, amongst them the #1 are using haste.
Why do people always look at the top rated - by whatever outside metric - players? The math is out there, their situation might be totally different (in that a max performance tranquility might be the deciding factor), they might be better players/networkers/nolifers than theorycrafters, ...

[Thalur]

I'm a little confused because isn't the goal to keep harmony up as close to 100% of the time as possible? Usually top resto's log >90% uptime on harmony per fight, making this conclusion point in the direction that mastery has the slight edge.

You're reading that wrong. From the list of prerequisites, only if ALL of them apply, mastery does have a chance of beating haste. That means if you don't have 100% harmony uptime, haste is better. If you do have 100% uptime, it depends on whether all of the other things are fulfilled too.

From the current raid bosses in WoD, that only applies to mythic Imperator if you're not using DoC. That's a rather small application area, so it's safe to say that currently, haste > mastery.

[Deleted]

Oops, Thaldor is right, DoC was specifically excluded from the scenario hamlet was talking about. The rest of my point still stands.
Actually, including DoC would only further encourage you to go haste>mastery, since its healing doesn't scale with mastery (last i checked).

[Deleted]

This is the BiS list I just made. It may have some sub-optimal pieces. Let me know if you have suggestions!

https : //docs. google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hdkr3dy-nj2euN5AvMHeVaaO8QOmwmGEoe-Rw6izjK0/edit#gid=0

This is exactly the list i would prefer too.

Have someone done the math behind the trinket choice? Which one have the most mana regen / throughput ?