Ret PvP after recent changes

[Tangra]

If we are supposed to be the support class. Why do we rely so much on support? its overall is just a horrible class scheme.

While support spec actually means something in LoL, it means nothing in WoW; due to this, hybrids regularly have serious issues in PvP, as their role is nonsensical. Having some mediocre off-heals that cost dps cannot be what a spec is balanced around, until that changes I can't see these problems going away. On top of this, our off-heals don't just come at the price of having no reliable constant pressure, rather, due to very questionable talents like selfless-healer, our personal survivability is among the worst in the game. Finally, our crowd control is also below average.

As we have all mentioned, these issues are not as bad as they have been in other seasons, but they are still present, and the unnecessary nerfs over the past few weeks are making them relevant again. Our 4pc was not "really" over budget (the excuse for the nerf) as it offered nothing particularly meaningful to PvP; it was basically just a slight, nearly passive buff to damage and healing, which is so irrelevant to how PvP works that it should have been over-budget to compensate (our old bonus, which gave holy power when taking direct damage, was way better designed.) Our 2pc did not need to become dispensable, that was an overreaction, and now that people have more gear that's very obvious.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Now these are some opinions!

Don't you think though that ret has a long time established and thoroughly maintained role of a second role player?

[Tangra]

Now these are some opinions!

Don't you think though that ret has a long time established and thoroughly maintained role of a second role player?

Yes, but that's just a story the developers and the community have been telling themselves. I don't think Ret ever really established any sort of defined and functional identity in PvP. The spec started making some developmental progress in Wrath, but then Cata and especially MoP accomplished nothing significant and actually sent the spec backwards. Like I said before having support revolve around off-heals doesn't work, they are either too weak or too strong in realistic situations, they either make no difference or make your team nearly invincible.

For the support meme to finally start having a meanigful manifestation in WoW, such specs probably need to be given a specific and powerful mechanic. For example, all healers (and only healers, Ret and Shadow of course lost it) were given access to dispel magic a few years ago. Just as a general vague idea to serve only as an example, maybe Purge should be buffed in some way to do more than just remove magical buffs, and then given to all hybrid dps and taken away from anyone else (including dks and and healers.) Again I'm not saying that's what should happen, just that there should be an actual special "support" ability that gives the term some actual meaning beyond just off-heals, which have proven unbalanceable.

[NeatForever]

Please no...just no...

What you are describing is a ret with all the support of an enhance shamans. You can't have evrything...next youll ask for deathgrip, charge and stealth

you realize i said i'd take one of these. not them all..

[Tangra]

you realize i said i'd take one of these. not them all..

Don't waste your breath; there is always someone trying to derail our legitimate discussions with accusations that we are cry babies who want everything, regardless of the fact that WoW PvP history very clearly shows we have good reasons to complain.

[Demsi]

So...are we back to MoP style pvp or what? i played at WoD launch and about a month in, i just pissed in peoples faces and destroyed everyone who wasn't better than me, is that over? are we back to the incredibly niche spec wich was MoP/cata Ret?

[Ferg]

just went 7-1 to cap points this week with an ele shaman

was great fun

of course, i run divine purpose / final verdict so if I get my procs, I'll smash face

[Animefreak3K]

We're back in MoP in so many cases.

End-Beta was really good. Sure, some points were not, but could have been fixed.
Release of 6.1 brought us down, and after the release of WoD, we're back to how MoP ended.
Burst - nothing - Burst.
Bubbleforcing gameplay is still the same.
You still need a hunter, other comps aren't quite as good as a hunter is.

Ret is still not able to trade Burst for more/better substaind damage.
Sanctified Wrath and Divine Purpose (still) aren't no match against Holy Avenger. It's still needed. No good Ret (esp. High-Rated Ones) take another talent, that HA.

It's the third Addon (!), were our gameplay is nearly the same.

Look at the buffs Blizzard did in the last weeks.
Look at the ladders.
Look, which classes/speccs are up there, and how their gameplay have changed. Many have the same (again).

I still don't get it, why blizzard went from (this time really) good way of balance, back to such a sad state (again).

[lizurD]

Here's what I always come back to in regards to Ret pvp, specifically arenas..

If Ret is the "support" spec, why do they have literally the worst peels among melee dps? One snare, one hammer on a 30s cd, or a 1 minute hammer and an incapacitate.. that has a cast time.

Why do we have the worst offheals of any hybrid? Selfless Healer is a joke. Why do DKs, Warriors, Rogues, BM Hunters (the list goes on) self heal for way more than Ret? Yes, Ret does okay to great damage during wings.. the wings where your set bonus now gets dispelled immediately and you sit in a CC chain. Meanwhile DKs, Wars, etc just keep on truckin endlessly. Where is something like IBF, D-stance, Evasion, Deterrence, etc for Ret? All you can really do is try to kite and WoG spam.. which by the way is pathetic when you're getting focused. While you also do no damage. Oh bubble? You mean the ability where you can maybe get 3-4 FoLs off? Yeah, congrats on healing yourself for like 30%. A DK just doubled that in the same time and actually did damage while he was at it.

Buffs? I don't count that when literally everything you can do is dispellable. Even bubble. I sure wish you could glyph something to negate any of those defensive abilities above.

Name a category where Ret is the best, or even second best. It's not burst (I would argue Boomkins, Hunters, Combat Rogues, Frost DKs) or sustained damage, offheals, peels, buffs, or defensive abilities.

[PapaNasty]

We can't have everything our way.

Our class is, in general, a pretty solid pvp class, particularly as it's relatively easy to play. We have a huge toolbox of abilities e.g.

We can choose from +15-30% speed passively, +45% speed for 3s every 6s or +70% speed for 8s every 45s
We can remove all snares with no cd
We can remove all slows with no cd
We can remove all snares & slows on ourselves or others & prevent them being reapplied for 6s every 25s
We can reduce the duration of CC effects by 25% which is off gcd on a 20s cd (if glyphed)
We can reduce dot dmg by 80% for 6s on ourselves or others with a 1m cd
We can reduce dmg to others by 30% for 8s on a 1m 30s cd
We can remove all dots, become invincible for 8s & instantly heal for 35% (if glyphed) with a 3m cd
We can reduce magic dmg by 40% for 8s every 30s which is off the GCD (Or all dmg by 20% if glyphed)
We can instantly heal to full health on a 5m cd
We can can instant cast heals
We have a dmg reducing shield for ourselves or another that only needs to be refreshed every 30s
We have an instant 6s ranged stun on 30s cd (Or 6s melee stun on 1m cd + ranged incapacitation on 15s cd)
We have an interrupt on 15s cd
We have a 10% dmg reduction glyph with a high uptime
We have some of the better (not best) burst dps available.

Of course these could be better, especially our cc/interrupts (Mainly just because so many classes can stun, the DRs don't synergise well), but they're definitely not that bad either.

Not having effective control, mortal strike or the best burst dmg, is perhaps why Ret Paladins aren't represented well at the higher arena ratings.

I think that a talent or glyph, which would give us the option of a mortal strike, would give us what we need in pvp while not making us OP, depending on what the tradeoff was. Like maybe if it was packaged with Empowered Seals or similar, so that it removed a lot of our burst dps, in exchange for being able to wear down opponents more effectively.

[Deleted]

@PapaNasty's list of Paladin abilities:

You name alot of things that other classes have too, though oftenly better.

For example, we need a glyph+ability to get -10% damage reduction for a few seconds while a DK just runs around in Blood Presence.
We can sintantly heal to full health on a 5 minute cooldown? Not in rated PvP we can't.
We only have 1 real CC ability (stun) that many classes also have+more.

What I would like to see:
- Our flash heals are too low on healing and should at the least be higher when cast on ourselves.
- We shouldnt have to waist a glyph for a damage reduction.
- Another CC ability (pref. a blind)
- Better seal bonusses without having to take the level 100 talent for it.

[Felfuhrer]

Ret and Ferals always have this problem in the beginning of the expansion

Casual pvp'ers find the most broken spec that really easy to play at low MMR and exploit it. The other casuals cry by the millions and out comes Blizzard's fave toy, the Nerf Hammer.

Ret was actually in a good place at the beginning of the season until they basically took our set bonuses out of the game. The fact that we couldn't be cc'ed during wings was the reason we were actually a threat. Now we are right back where we were in MoP. Not bad but why take a ret when you can have a DK or a warrior?

[PapaNasty]

@PapaNasty's list of Paladin abilities:

You name alot of things that other classes have too, though oftenly better.

For example, we need a glyph+ability to get -10% damage reduction for a few seconds while a DK just runs around in Blood Presence.
We can sintantly heal to full health on a 5 minute cooldown? Not in rated PvP we can't.
We only have 1 real CC ability (stun) that many classes also have+more.

What I would like to see:
- Our flash heals are too low on healing and should at the least be higher when cast on ourselves.
- We shouldnt have to waist a glyph for a damage reduction.
- Another CC ability (pref. a blind)
- Better seal bonusses without having to take the level 100 talent for it.

A blind, or other cc, maybe something like:

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=115750/blinding-light or maybe http://www.wowhead.com/spell=20066/repentance ?

Also yes DKs can have 10% dmg reduction, but they lose the benefits of their other presences in order to gain that buff. Just as hunters need to take a talent in order to gain their 10% dmg reduction. I'd say a hunter losing 2% heals per 2s (or their 22% heal) is probably a bigger loss than what we have for glyphing it (But then theirs is a flat 10% reduction, not conditional on anything, so it is better).

Other classes have other abilities, which are sometimes better, sometimes worse, sometimes with a larger tradeoff (e.g. needs to be talanted or glyphed) but mostly, just different. If they have 1x ability which is better, they usually also have another area where they're worse. I'm pretty sure that if you were to compare our abilities to any other melee dps spec, you could find multiple areas where we out perform them, as well as ones in which they out perform us.

When playing on my DK or hunter, sometimes I realise how annoying it is to not have some of the same abilities in my "toolbox" as what I do on my Paladin (While also obviously appreciating that they have other tools with different benefits).

[lolskillzz]

undo all the nerfs excluding the 2set. (imo redo 2set.) make 2 set something like cata SS, rename it and make it proc at 30% and grant an absorb worth 30% of hp with a 1 min icd and give a 5 sec buff that increases healing the ret takes by 30%ish. gg now ret does solid dmg, great burst, brings utility and can hold its own for a few moments while your healor is cc'ed.

I do feel ret needs other changes but they would be big to do mid tier/season. maybe 6.2.

[Tangra]

So...are we back to MoP style pvp or what? i played at WoD launch and about a month in, i just pissed in peoples faces and destroyed everyone who wasn't better than me, is that over? are we back to the incredibly niche spec wich was MoP/cata Ret?

No, it's not as bad, but we're sliding back in that direction. I don't think we will get any more nerfs, but buffs to other specs/classes could ruin us. Currently, however, Ret is good, but not amazing.

- - - Updated - - -

Ret and Ferals always have this problem in the beginning of the expansion

Casual pvp'ers find the most broken spec that really easy to play at low MMR and exploit it. The other casuals cry by the millions and out comes Blizzard's fave toy, the Nerf Hammer.

Ret was actually in a good place at the beginning of the season until they basically took our set bonuses out of the game. The fact that we couldn't be cc'ed during wings was the reason we were actually a threat. Now we are right back where we were in MoP. Not bad but why take a ret when you can have a DK or a warrior?

This is very accurate. The worst part is that Blizzard has actually stated in the past the nerfing a spec because it's too good against casuals is fine with them; and, maybe that is acceptable, but what is not acceptable is that they keep making Ret too good against casuals.

Also, what's up without our CC? We have had HoJ and Repent baseline since tBC, so we currently have about as much CC as we had in Vanilla?!?? What other spec can say that?

[lizurD]

Just a few points I'm contentious on:

We can remove all snares & slows on ourselves or others & prevent them being reapplied for 6s every 25s --- Dispellable
We can reduce the duration of CC effects by 25% which is off gcd on a 20s cd (if glyphed) --- Dispellable, also does not work on teammates (test it out)
We can reduce dot dmg by 80% for 6s on ourselves or others with a 1m cd ---- No one uses this for pvp.
We can reduce dmg to others by 30% for 8s on a 1m 30s cd --- Dispellable, though nice for breaking CC on teammates if unglyphed.
We can remove all dots, become invincible for 8s & instantly heal for 35% (if glyphed) with a 3m cd --- No one uses that glyph for pvp. Bubble can be shattered. You also do pathetic healing/damage while bubbled.
We can instantly heal to full health on a 5m cd -- LoH is not usable in arena.
We can can instant cast heals --- That heal for nothing if not a crit.
We have a dmg reducing shield for ourselves or another that only needs to be refreshed every 30s -- Dispellable.
We have an instant 6s ranged stun on 30s cd (Or 6s melee stun on 1m cd + ranged incapacitation on 15s cd) -- What other melee class has a CC with a cast time that also locks you out of almost all of your abilities if kicked?
We have an interrupt on 15s cd -- Pretty much everyone has this.
We have a 10% dmg reduction glyph with a high uptime -- If you're being focused you're generally not using TV/FV

[Tangra]

Just a few points I'm contentious on:

We can remove all snares & slows on ourselves or others & prevent them being reapplied for 6s every 25s --- Dispellable
We can reduce the duration of CC effects by 25% which is off gcd on a 20s cd (if glyphed) --- Dispellable, also does not work on teammates (test it out)
We can reduce dot dmg by 80% for 6s on ourselves or others with a 1m cd ---- No one uses this for pvp.
We can reduce dmg to others by 30% for 8s on a 1m 30s cd --- Dispellable, though nice for breaking CC on teammates if unglyphed.
We can remove all dots, become invincible for 8s & instantly heal for 35% (if glyphed) with a 3m cd --- No one uses that glyph for pvp. Bubble can be shattered. You also do pathetic healing/damage while bubbled.
We can instantly heal to full health on a 5m cd -- LoH is not usable in arena.
We can can instant cast heals --- That heal for nothing if not a crit.
We have a dmg reducing shield for ourselves or another that only needs to be refreshed every 30s -- Dispellable.
We have an instant 6s ranged stun on 30s cd (Or 6s melee stun on 1m cd + ranged incapacitation on 15s cd) -- What other melee class has a CC with a cast time that also locks you out of almost all of your abilities if kicked?
We have an interrupt on 15s cd -- Pretty much everyone has this.
We have a 10% dmg reduction glyph with a high uptime -- If you're being focused you're generally not using TV/FV

Have you reported that Glyph of Hand of Freedom is not working on others? They get the buff from it, so if it's not working it's clearly a bug.

[PapaNasty]

Yep Freedom is purgeable (And I didn't say the 25% cc reduction could be used on teammates), but it's initial effect still applies (which is the primary benefit) and forcing them to purge is still costing them a GCD, which reduces the burst on you (And of course, not everyone can purge).

Yes Hand of Purity isn't used much in PvP or PvE, as people generally prefer to reduce their other ability cooldowns, but imo it's a very viable option. It just means you need to have another button on your bars, which makes most people put it into the too hard basket. Compared to Divine Protection, you still get the same number of cooldown uses per minute, but you can then chain them one after the other, also HoP can be used on others. The effects of one vs the other are balanced depending on the situation (the base 10% dmg reduction on HoP can help vs melee dmg too). But admittedly, DP isn't on GCD, and the talent does also reduce the CD of bubble (Although it's still not a short enough CD to be used frequently).

Yes Hand of Sacrifice is purgeable, but it's still nice for either dmg mitigation or for breaking cc. DPS who use a GCD to purge, are purging instead of dpsing, which reduces their burst. So it's definitely useful (And of course, not everyone can purge).

The glyph for bubble to give +35% healing would be useful if you're running double dmg, as it is a good ability (bubble out of CC, +35% heals you can easily cancel aura for full heals/dmg if they switch to another target). Bubbles can be shattered, but that doesn't render the ability useless, as not many classes can do it.

LoH was included as this thread is about PvP, not just arena.

Our 2x instant heals aren't huge, but they're useful when being focused or if healer is cc'd (and more than what a lot of other classes have).

Repentence - Depending on what you're up against, it's still a viable option if used well. Not many classes have the option of 2x CCs which can be chained one after the other without any DR. Having a cast time is a mega pain, especially as an interrupt would mean we're holy locked, but we can't have everything (And it does have a 30 yard range).

10% dmg reduction also procs from exorcism, and if you're being focused, you can still use FV, it's just a tradeoff (e.g. If you're expecting heals, then 10% > Word of Glory, if no heals or already low, then WoG > 10%, but ideally of course, WoG + Exo)


In general, my main point was basically that we're not in that badder spot. Every class would like to have a little bit of something more, something which would make them Gods of the Arena, but at the end of the day, things are usually relatively balanced. Sometimes a particular class/spec will be OP, and then they usually end up getting nerfed, likewise sometimes there are some combinations which have particularly good synergies (e.g. M/R/P), although these usually don't get nerfed (And unfortunately, they usually don't involve Ret Paladins lol).

[Ramiell]

Ahh, Glyph of TV/FV. A glyph that is frustratingly poorly implemented, yet still manditory. A super short duration defensive glyph that actually gets worse when you are doing anything defensive. I tried to bring this thing to people's attention during the beta, but the plea fell on deaf ears.

Ugh.

[Tangra]

Yep Freedom is purgeable (And I didn't say the 25% cc reduction could be used on teammates), but it's initial effect still applies (which is the primary benefit) and forcing them to purge is still costing them a GCD, which reduces the burst on you (And of course, not everyone can purge).

Yes Hand of Purity isn't used much in PvP or PvE, as people generally prefer to reduce their other ability cooldowns, but imo it's a very viable option. It just means you need to have another button on your bars, which makes most people put it into the too hard basket. Compared to Divine Protection, you still get the same number of cooldown uses per minute, but you can then chain them one after the other, also HoP can be used on others. The effects of one vs the other are balanced depending on the situation (the base 10% dmg reduction on HoP can help vs melee dmg too). But admittedly, DP isn't on GCD, and the talent does also reduce the CD of bubble (Although it's still not a short enough CD to be used frequently).

Yes Hand of Sacrifice is purgeable, but it's still nice for either dmg mitigation or for breaking cc. DPS who use a GCD to purge, are purging instead of dpsing, which reduces their burst. So it's definitely useful (And of course, not everyone can purge).

The glyph for bubble to give +35% healing would be useful if you're running double dmg, as it is a good ability (bubble out of CC, +35% heals you can easily cancel aura for full heals/dmg if they switch to another target). Bubbles can be shattered, but that doesn't render the ability useless, as not many classes can do it.

LoH was included as this thread is about PvP, not just arena.

Our 2x instant heals aren't huge, but they're useful when being focused or if healer is cc'd (and more than what a lot of other classes have).

Repentence - Depending on what you're up against, it's still a viable option if used well. Not many classes have the option of 2x CCs which can be chained one after the other without any DR. Having a cast time is a mega pain, especially as an interrupt would mean we're holy locked, but we can't have everything (And it does have a 30 yard range).

10% dmg reduction also procs from exorcism, and if you're being focused, you can still use FV, it's just a tradeoff (e.g. If you're expecting heals, then 10% > Word of Glory, if no heals or already low, then WoG > 10%, but ideally of course, WoG + Exo)

In general, my main point was basically that we're not in that badder spot. Every class would like to have a little bit of something more, something which would make them Gods of the Arena, but at the end of the day, things are usually relatively balanced. Sometimes a particular class/spec will be OP, and then they usually end up getting nerfed, likewise sometimes there are some combinations which have particularly good synergies (e.g. M/R/P), although these usually don't get nerfed (And unfortunately, they usually don't involve Ret Paladins lol).

It can be used on teammates! Am I missing something? Other people do get the 25% reduction, unless it's bugged. Maybe I'm reading your statements wrong. Also, practically every spec in the game (especially dps specs) have two CCs that don't DR that can be chained together, often more easily too.