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  1. #1

    Saving Grace saving thread.

    Let's have this thread to discuss how Saving Grace can be changed to be a very viable choice in T100. For me it would be:

    -Saving Grace's healing debuff changed to now only affect Saving Grace's healing.
    -Debuff is now at 20% and can stack 4 times.
    -Heals for 3 times more than Flash Heal.
    -Is instant.

    With those, maybe it could see some usage, I feel. What about others? :-)

    Edit: Will add more suggestions.

    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123
    -No debuffs.
    -Spell now functions with a charge system with a maximum of 2 or 3.
    -One charge granted every 45 sec to 1 min.
    -Is instant.
    ~~~~

    -Priest sacrifices health to heal for the amount.

    ~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by Danner
    Scrap the core mechanic of the ability (healing loss downside). At which point it's no longer Saving Grace, but rather a strong version of flash heal. And what's the point of that? If Flash Heal, the epitome dump-mana-to-fix-a-problem spell isn't working out, then that means flash heal should be fixed, not introduce a greater flash heal spell. Which really just underlines the argument that Saving Grace needs to be scrapped.
    ~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by coolnitro
    How about this: Change the ability so that it increases healing on the target for X number of heals but then the more you heal past that X number it reduces healing meaning that you can get a large buff from its use but over use of it leads to reduced healing on the target and recasts of SG refresh the buff / debuff timer + reduce a stack from say +5 to -5 and to balance it if stacks fall off completely the target becomes immune to SG for X time to prevent max healing buff weaving.
    ~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by oderon View Post
    Couple more options to consider:
    - change debuff to reduce something else than HPS - i.e. increased mp cost of priest skills
    - remove debuff, but make the skill usable only on targets with low hp. it might still need some cooldown or weakened soul effect to prevent abuse but keep the healing strong.
    - change it to be like a single target CoP that replaces flash heal, with lower mp cost and increased effectiveness on low hp targets
    Last edited by Well; 2015-02-11 at 07:03 PM.

  2. #2
    That now sounds like something that would be excellent in pve; however, I would guess that it would game breaking in pvp.

  3. #3
    People have been talking about how bad Saving Grace is and suggesting changes...ever since beta, bro. Blizzard isn't listening. For the longest time, I've said that Saving Grace should not have the stupid debuff, it should just have a Charge system. 2-3 charges on a 45sec - 1min recharge timer. Simple.

    In 6.1 they're buffing it +50% and making it Instant again, but the debuff now reduces your healing by 15% per stack.

    Judging by this "buff", they still do not understand why Saving Grace is a bad talent, and are just mindlessly buffing it in hopes that players will use it. I'd argue that this "buff" in fact makes Saving Grace even worse, because it exacerbates the debuff, which is the sole problem. Why would I want to cast a heal that's going to cripple my healing for the next 8 seconds? That's stupid.

    In my WoD raiding experiences, I've not run into a situation where I thought, "Man, I could have really used a big instant cast heal to save that person". The only time people dip dangerously low is if someone fucks up a mechanic, like setting off a mine on imperator.
    Last edited by anon5123; 2015-02-09 at 04:14 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    In my WoD raiding experiences, I've not run into a situation where I thought, "Man, I could have really used a big instant cast heal to save that person". The only time people dip dangerously low is if someone fucks up a mechanic, like setting off a mine on imperator.
    In SoO if you could catch a tank at low HP then Void Shift was great for bumping their HP back up. DKs in purgatory was great for this.
    From what I understand this talent is supposed to be a reworked replacement for Void Shift.

    I can't really see a way to make Saving Grace usable in PVE. The problem with a charge system is that as soon as it becomes strong enough to be used in PVE it will become a requirement to use it at certain intervals instead of being an emergency spell - I don't think the talent is aimed at this though.

    Honestly, it feels like a pretty lackluster 100 talent regardless of what you do to it.
    Saving Grace is never going to see use in PVE until its overpowered to the point of where the overall gain is greater than the debuff prevents. A charge system is probably the best chance of seeing it used in PVE but the basic design of the spell prevents it from becoming part of the regular toolkit - why would anyone pick a spell that has irregular use just in case the a player takes an unexpectedly high amount of damage. This niche is already filled, this is what Guardian Spirit, Pain Suppression, Iron Bark etc. are for?.

    Saving Grace is a one of those ideas that look great when pitching it verbally; 'a life saving talent that can instantly prevent death at the cost of power'. As soon as you get into the theory you immediately realise that nobody will ever use it outside of arena unless its stupidly overpowered. I can understand the attraction the devs might have had initially but I think a full redesign of the talent is needed, something that actually provides a competitive throughput gain to WoM and 6.1 version of CoP. Nobody will ever pick a rarely used emergency talent over solid, consistent and predictable throughput gains.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by appro View Post
    Saving Grace is a one of those ideas that look great when pitching it verbally; 'a life saving talent that can instantly prevent death at the cost of power'. As soon as you get into the theory you immediately realise that nobody will ever use it outside of arena unless its stupidly overpowered. I can understand the attraction the devs might have had initially but I think a full redesign of the talent is needed, something that actually provides a competitive throughput gain to WoM and 6.1 version of CoP. Nobody will ever pick a rarely used emergency talent over solid, consistent and predictable throughput gains.
    It was seeing use in arenas, but they pretty much broke it for that now as well with the new changes. It heals for far less than it does on live in arena, and the debuff is higher; the only benefit is that it's instant now, but you only used it to quickly top someone up... now it doesn't even do that.

  6. #6
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    Wonder why they didn't just go with Priest sacrifices amount of their health to heal target for 3x health sacrificed or something along those lines. Would have made Binding Heal a more attractive spell to use.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurasu View Post
    It was seeing use in arenas, but they pretty much broke it for that now as well with the new changes. It heals for far less than it does on live in arena, and the debuff is higher; the only benefit is that it's instant now, but you only used it to quickly top someone up... now it doesn't even do that.
    Why would it heal for far less when its coefficient was bumped up by 50%? Was there some change to how healing works in arenas?

    Edit: Nvm, just saw the PvP change. Wow, that seems so pointless then.
    Last edited by ceddya; 2015-02-09 at 07:50 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ceddya View Post
    Was there some change to how healing works in arenas?
    Indeed. From the PTR patch notes,

    "Saving Grace's (Discipline, Holy) healing has increased by 50%, but now reduces future healing dealt by 15% (up from 10%). Additionally, the talent is now Instant, but its effectiveness is reduced while in PvP combat."

    There was also a thread a while ago on the WoW forums that looked at the numbers for it on Live and the PTR (it may be found here). Judging from the numbers in the thread, it appears that it only works at ~50% effectiveness* in PvP.

    *Maths: Looking at the screenshots supplied in the above-linked thread, the Priest's Versatility is the only thing that is different between the two (stats-wise), so if we remove the contributions of Versatility to the two healing amounts, then we may directly compare them. As such, the effectiveness in PvP is,

    Effectiveness = (44651/1.0572)/[(1.5)(58444/1.0378)] = 0.50

    EDIT: Changes made since (see here and also the Blue Tweets section of this from MMO-C) indicate it now operates at two-thirds effectiveness in PvP.
    Last edited by Myllior; 2015-02-10 at 10:12 PM.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    Let's have this thread to discuss how Saving Grace can be changed to be a very viable choice in T100. For me it would be:

    -Saving Grace's debuff changed to now only affect Saving Grace.
    So the debuff affects only further healing DONE BY Saving Grace ? It sounds something like a WS debuff , which in this case would make this talent somewhat usefull.Used to heal spot someone taking a spike or failing at tacts , or even in a tank healing "rotation".

  10. #10
    Pandaren Monk Banzhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    Let's have this thread to discuss how Saving Grace can be changed to be a very viable choice in T100. For me it would be:

    -Saving Grace's debuff changed to now only affect Saving Grace.
    -Debuff is now at 20% and can stack 4 times.
    -Heals for 3 times more than Flash Heal.
    -Is instant.

    With those, maybe it could see some usage, I feel. What about others? :-)
    As long as it debuffs your other primary spell uses, it'll never be used simply because no encounter has windows where you need that single instant heal and then sit around watching.
    It's rather pathetic they even made it with a debuff attached as they should know it wouldn't be used, if it had 1-2 charges and regenerated over 45sec-1min then yes, there's 1-2 fights where it could be useful.

  11. #11
    This thread should totally have been titled "Saving Saving Grace Gracefully"

    I think it is not salvageable.

    As long as the spell has a healing loss attached to it, it needs to have an upside to match. The bottom line is that it doesnt. It doesn't matter if it heals for +400% of your spellpower, or +4000% of your spellpower; it's still a clutch spell you only want to cast in extreme situations where you really need to save someone NOW, because that downside matters a lot. If you in any way reasonably can save the player in question by throwing out a guardian spirit or a few flash heals instead, you can and should do that.

    This means there is just no niche for SG, unless you create situations where SG is the only spell that can save the day. Say, having the tank take unreasonable damage, or something similar. But the moment you actually do that, the SG talent is the only viable option, and priests are a mandatory asset in the setup.

    So no, I don't think this is salvageable as-is.

    What can make it salvageable, you ask?
    Scrap the core mechanic of the ability (healing loss downside). At which point it's no longer Saving Grace, but rather a strong version of flash heal. And what's the point of that? If Flash Heal, the epitome dump-mana-to-fix-a-problem spell isn't working out, then that means flash heal should be fixed, not introduce a greater flash heal spell. Which really just underlines the argument that Saving Grace needs to be scrapped.
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  12. #12
    Deleted
    How about this: Change the ability so that it increases healing on the target for X number of heals but then the more you heal past that X number it reduces healing meaning that you can get a large buff from its use but over use of it leads to reduced healing on the target and recasts of SG refresh the buff / debuff timer + reduce a stack from say +5 to -5 and to balance it if stacks fall off completely the target becomes immune to SG for X time to prevent max healing buff weaving.

    I personally think that would be ideal because as it stands SG is a weak spell on its own on the first cast and gets worse per cast, there is simply no plus side to using it in its current state.
    Last edited by mmocb7bc0f26da; 2015-02-09 at 11:34 AM.

  13. #13
    Deleted
    I really like the idea of SG only affecting it's own healing, it is less punishable and can be used many times during the encounter rather than the current which can be even none. This also gives an extra spell to our poor "rotation". Of course to make it work it needs a cd or charges or the debuff to last longer than now (1 minute or something could work), otherwise it can be too powerful.

    They took away Void Shift and tried to give us something similar, but it is too punishing and situational for a talent, if it wasn't a talent even the 6.1 version could have it's uses (not in it's current retarded state though!)

  14. #14
    Comparison to Flash Heal is in order...

    Throughput Mana Cost Procs Opportunity Cost
    Flash Heal 332.6% 4.14% Serendipity None
    Saving Grace 630% 3% -10% healing loss Giving up Words of Mending

    Let's do that point-by-point.

    Throughput:
    Saving Grace is twice as powerful as Flash Heal. That's it's entire selling point. This is the reason for picking the spell.
    My criticism:
    Flash Heal is already our "oh shit" heal. It is supposed to be our way to dump mana onto a problem. As long as we are spamming it, things shouldn't die; we just can't do flash heal spam for very long. It may be made an argument that Flash heal is too weak to actually work in this niche - and my memories of normalmode dungeons would like to agree on that point. However, I think it is generally good enough to fill the niche. If that is not the case, Flash Heal has a big identity problem and needs to be fixed. I don't think we are there. meaning SG is without a niche in the first place.

    It may also be made an argument that Flash Heal is too cheap for that position, as I seem to recall casting quite a few of them before oom'ing. But either way, flash heal is a spell we won't liberally abuse when healing raids. Case in point - had Saving Grace been a Flash heal at double efficiency and everything else being equal, we still couldn't afford to spam it much. it's not though; it's also cheaper. And that's important. Which brings us to the next point.

    Cost and procs:
    Saving Grace is 27.5% cheaper than Flash Heal. But Flash heal also procs Serendipity, which evens the cost playing field quite massively.
    My criticism:
    Consider that 2 flash heals also give you a 20% cost reduction on a Prayer of Healing. That's 7.12% * 0.2 = 1.4% of your manapool saved. Or in clearer terms: One Flash heal can save you up to 0.7% of a manabar, in optimal conditions.

    Which means the comparison is really 4.1%-0.7=3.4% for Flash Heal in optimal conditions, vs 3.0% for Saving Grace. That's not a terribly major difference anymore!
    Of course, that's an optimal scenario vs regular use comparison, which may not be extremely valid. But it's worth a consideration. The manacost is ultimately not that different.

    Downsides:
    Saving Grace reduces overall output by 10% per cast, and you have to give up Words of Mending to pick it. And had you cast Flash Heal instead, Serendipity also adds extra throughput.
    My criticism:
    It's not that I really love Words of Mending. It's a weak talent by any measure. However, it's adding extra throughput in the form of a ProM proc, albeit semi-randomly. I think SG is a better more controlled form of applying that throughput. But if you want to do pure numbers, the ProM proc isn't terrible in terms of adding raw HPS, it's essentially a ProM proc per 2 heals cast (not all which have to be Flash Heal). Add to that the benefits from Serendipity, and my gutfeel says to me that the two are rather even in terms of applied throughput in ideal situations. I haven't done any math on that though.

    Real situations are of course less than ideal, and SG would win in the real world. The value of being able to apply that extra throughput on demand is far more strong than random procs. So let's not fool anyone - SG is definitively better in real world scenarios, if you disregard the 10% healing reduction. This is especially true in the oh-shit scenarios where a humongous saving grace will save the day, while two flash heals may just be too slow.

    But... the 10% healing loss really tilt any favorites towards just sticking to Flash Heal. There is just no way I can defend it being worth it, except as a pigeonhole for extremely situational situations (say, Hagara the Stormbinder's Focused Assault). And as it happens, you're not supposed to eat Hagara's Focused Assault to the face. Picking a talent that allows you to outheal it, at the cost of effectiveness for the rest of the fight is... probably the wrong solution.
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  15. #15
    Archangel needs to allow you to use SG without it applying the healing debuff (same way it makes flash heal crit now).

    That would make it a great talent actually in conjunction with the upcoming change.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naraga View Post
    Archangel needs to allow you to use SG without it applying the healing debuff (same way it makes flash heal crit now).

    That would make it a great talent actually in conjunction with the upcoming change.
    And Holy gets what...? If you say Serendipity, you're making the debuff irrelevant when combined with 4pc bonus.

  17. #17
    Deleted
    Would completely destroy pvp (idc about pvp but others do)

    just delete it and make something different.....anything but i dont know atm lol

  18. #18
    TBH the only way I would ever use this as disc is if the tank damage was insane and CoW just wasn't viable. It could be useful to have a quick heal while Weakened Soul debuff is on and penance is on CD. I've yet to see an encounter in WoD that meets these requirements though.

  19. #19
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    Other classes have PvP only talents, so I'm not sure why they're trying so hard to make it viable in PvE when it already had a niche they could further develop in PvP. It just seems like they're designing it backwards.

  20. #20
    My vote would be to remove Saving Grace and replace it with Void Shift.

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