[Guardian] Its time to unseat TheIncBear and install a new Bear King

[Bolgrom]

It's painfully obvious that Arielle has drank the blizzard coolaid and is no longer any help to us few bears who are left. I'm not saying bears are completely broken, but the list has been mentioned many times. Heres a succinct version:

-Our main AM relies on RNG - no other tank relies on pure dumb luck as much as we do
-We're rage starved - maul can only be used when not actively tanking
-We're rage starved - frenzied regen can only be used even semi-effectively when SD is on cooldown AND your resolve is 3/4 to max full AND you dont need to save rage for when SD is off cooldown (basically only when berserking then)
-AOE dmg, once our niche, is now a pitiful joke since the over-nerf of thrash.
-Threat issues on single target - got a tiny bit better with the mangle semi-buff (+7% dmg isn't anything to write home about tho)
-Guardian 100 talents are the laughing stock of all classes/specs
-We bring zero utility to any raid, other than a fluffy bear butt (savage roar? not guardian specific)

Since theincbear.com is basically dormant, and its leader (who apparently still has the ear of blizz) thinks bears are "fine", I say we as a community find someone who can take the helm and write emails/tweets/forum posts (official and non) to bring attention to our plight and hopefully we won't see anymore "Guardians - Considering the jump?" threads in here.

I'd do it myself, but I have little credibility in the community. I've been maining bear since TBC, but I took 3 years off, am not mythic, and don't have the brain for simulations. There are others that do though! Others that could help us all! Maybe someday people will WANT to bring a bear on progression fights. But it is obvious from the 6.1 patch notes that we'll have to fight our way to that end - by being well spoken, always correct in simulation claims, and most importantly by being the squeaky wheel.

I vote for my fellow Laughing-Skullian, Casa. You are a smart guy, active on these forums, and were cool to me outside of BRF a week ago. Maybe theres someone else who'd be a better fit, but I haven't seen them around here.

Thoughts/Discussion/Feedback from any and all bears regarding what we can do to better ourselves is appreciated.


/Salute

Bolgrom
Laughing-Skull US

[Grayfeather]

It isn't as dire as some may say (myself included sometimes). Also multiple other classes have the "our voices aren't being heard" atmosphere.

Just from the DK perspective alone Blizzard nerfed BB to the point where Blood single target dps dropped substantially without being compensated by the rushed hotfix while AoE damage was "normalized" with other classes, but UH DPS took a fatal blow by the change in retrospect. Meanwhile the actual planned changes for major patches don't begin to scratch the surface on class balance or intelligent changes.

So in general, practically no one is being heard and it seems Blizzard either A) Doesn't really care or B) Is completely oblivious to their class community feedback. Sweeping severe hotfixes just makes things worse.

[Jds550]

Casa is awesome.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Just to put things in perspective, what tank brings something to the raid that isnt spec specific?
If you ask me, Battle Rez and Roar are incredibly useful.

Otherwise, I don't think Guardian druids are as poor as you make them seem. They don't have a specific niche that works well for them, but their CDs are really quite potent.
I don't look at the 100 talents and think they are any worse than any other tanks, but suppose the depth of choices can be considered a bit thin.

Also, I've never really looked at AOE as bear's niche. When would you say that was?
Historically, I think the poster boy for AOE threat has been Paladins as far back as even Classic and TBC.
Recently, in CMs, Monks were unfathomably potent because of Keg Smash, and even more recent DKs were doing more AOE than actual damage deals.
Maybe what you meant to say was that Bears have been stronger AOE than they are now, but to say it was their niche seems short sighted to me.

[Casagrande]

While I appreciate the support (especially from my BFF Jds), I have neither the time nor interest to become a "Bear King". As Blizzard seems deaf to our cries, I'll likely be following so many others and giving up on our favorite class before next tier. Monks are just so much better at everything, I can't justify doing this much longer. Compared to monks, bears take more damage, take larger spikes, require more external healing, deal less single target damage, deal less cleave damage, deal less aoe damage, have worse mobility, and have fewer (and worse) utility abilities. A guild member of mine suggested that until my monk is ready for prime time, I should use the new Twitter integration feature to tweet my #bearproblems to @WorldofWarcraft, with screenshots showing either the new death log, or simply damage done / damage taken / healing taken meters. I'm considering it.

That said, I don't think there's a need to "unseat" anyone. Arielle and his friends (Reesi, etc.) have given up spewing their garbage on the official forums and MMOChampion, retreating to Arielle's private forums for a nice circlejerk. I stop by occasionally for a good laugh, most recently Arielle stated that Guardian of Elune is a good talent because you spend less rage on Savage Defense (not true), and it causes you to take more damage than Pulverize (true, and the spikes are larger), resulting in more resolve (not true, and even if it were, this is not an argument for taking more damage, it's always much worse to take more damage due to external healing requirements and resolve DR). I'm not even joking, check out post #19 here: http://www.theincbear.com/forums/vie...hp?f=10&t=1401

[Tantric]

Otherwise, I don't think Guardian druids are as poor as you make them seem.

It really isn't about how far behind we are. I mean it is clear that we are the worst tank right now, but we are not so far behind that we can't be viable. The real issue is that we have no leadership. TheIncBear is practically dead. The bear community on MMO-Champ is dormant. Arielle is just not advocating for us.

Other classes seem to have armies of players advocating for them. Bears feel like a forgotten spec.

I love my bear. I am not going to switch to Monk, like so many of you have. It is super tempting, and I don't blame you guys for switching. It is hard when you have to play extremely well, borderline perfectly, to be on the same level as a mediocre pally tank, but it can be done.

I hope this community picks up, and starts getting in Blizzards face. Until then, I will be trying to find every advantage I can to keep up. And loving every minute of it.

[Arielle]

I generally don't post here because I have personal issues with Curse. But since people are apparently allowed to make personal attacks without reprisal, I guess I have to make some attempt to defend myself.

-Our main AM relies on RNG - no other tank relies on pure dumb luck as much as we do

Which, on average, is fine. What isn't fine are situations where you can be globaled through AM without anything you can do to prevent it (i.e. the Horridon problem). This was partially fixed through a couple of changes in Warlords - a new Mastery (which outright prevents the Horridon problem), and the changed tank meta in which overall damage reduction is more valuable (because Healer mana matters). In Highmaul there were obvious issues with several encounters that were outright designed to bypass our passive mitigation while still being handled by other tanks through Block or talents.

The way we should have been able to handle these encounters (Tectus, Ko'ragh, Imperator) was through GoE, except that talent was complete trash for everything when you can't simply spam Thrash to support it. In 6.1 it will be much closer to Pulverize for one target, and outright buffed in any situation in which you would have taken it before anyway (CMs, Tectus).

-We're rage starved - maul can only be used when not actively tanking

Patently false.

-We're rage starved - frenzied regen can only be used even semi-effectively when SD is on cooldown AND your resolve is 3/4 to max full AND you dont need to save rage for when SD is off cooldown (basically only when berserking then)

Probably intended. This isn't SoO anymore. Healers actually have to heal you. That's just something you're going to have to deal with. I can find plenty of Rage to FR when it's the best option available. FR is meant to recover from damage that you cannot otherwise avoid (which have a built-in resolve multiplier). It's not meant to be a primary survival tool for melee attacks.

-AOE dmg, once our niche, is now a pitiful joke since the over-nerf of thrash.

DPS should never be considered a niche, especially for tanks. In any case, yes Thrash should be buffed by 10-15% to be comparable to other tank's AoE. The initial nerf was justified, but data since then has pretty clearly shown that Guardians are on the bottom for AoE. And by a pretty hefty margin.

-Threat issues on single target - got a tiny bit better with the mangle semi-buff (+7% dmg isn't anything to write home about tho)

Single target damage is fine with the exception of Pulverize being a DPS loss. If that was fixed we'd be on par with Warriors. Comparing us to Monks (who are clearly overpowered) is not a useful analysis, nor one that Blizzard will ever listen to.

-Guardian 100 talents are the laughing stock of all classes/specs

The new version of GoE is good at what it does. Pulverize is fine. BF is the one out of place.

-We bring zero utility to any raid, other than a fluffy bear butt (savage roar? not guardian specific)

Stems primarily from our messed up L90 talents. Since we're almost forced into DoC for survival purposes, it means our unique utility is no longer an option for us to take. DKs are in a similar boat and have been for a while. It's a problem, and one that should be fixed. The next window for it to be addressed probably isn't until 6.2.

That said, I don't think there's a need to "unseat" anyone. Arielle and his friends (Reesi, etc.) have given up spewing their garbage on the official forums and MMOChampion, retreating to Arielle's private forums for a nice circlejerk. I stop by occasionally for a good laugh, most recently Arielle stated that Guardian of Elune is a good talent because you spend less rage on Savage Defense (not true), and it causes you to take more damage than Pulverize (true, and the spikes are larger), resulting in more resolve (not true, and even if it were, this is not an argument for taking more damage, it's always much worse to take more damage due to external healing requirements and resolve DR). I'm not even joking, check out post #19 here: http://www.theincbear.com/forums/vie...hp?f=10&t=1401

With regards to "Resolve DR", it depends very much not only on the amount of damage, but what kind of damage it is. But you should already know that. The point you can't account for is overheal %, since that depends almost entirely on communication between you and your healers. If you have more overheal, then suddenly GoE tanks relative to Pulverize. This is not news.

Will people suddenly switch to GoE en masse? No. Is it a much better talent than what it used to be? Yes. No two L100 talents are going to be the same in every situation.

[Arlee]

Please don't make threads to bash other people. There are plenty of other threads where issues of the class can and are being discussed.