How do I develop a language?

[Vanyali]

It is debatable whether or not language affects culture or culture affects language. A simple example might be the fact that in Japanese there are different grammatical forms depending on the level of politeness required (e.g. a king a speaking to a peasant would be vastly different than the reverse, with gradations in between the social levels). Is the language like this because the Japanese are culturally more aware of social standing, or are they more aware because of these linguistic distinctions?

I'd say both; the way we see things is heavily influenced by language (for example, groups that see colors different, or have words for emotions that we feel differently/ don't feel), but without those things in a basic form there wouldn't be a need for a word for it.

So, if I had to hit it on one side or another, I'd say language greatly magnifies culture, but culture ultimately starts with being able to express yourself in a certain way.

[Independent voter]

Some of the US Native American languages are documented, they are very well known. Why reinvent the wheel.

Some of them sound very beautiful, like running water.

[Techno-Druid]

I'd say both; the way we see things is heavily influenced by language (for example, groups that see colors different, or have words for emotions that we feel differently/ don't feel), but without those things in a basic form there wouldn't be a need for a word for it.

So, if I had to hit it on one side or another, I'd say language greatly magnifies culture, but culture ultimately starts with being able to express yourself in a certain way.

Also, for the ape languages, they are supposed to be based off English and some other human languages, I figured this because apes can already be taught to understand some English and even communicate by either sign language or lexigram. However, with the bears and some of the other races (did I mention I'm also adding some more feasible mythological creatures?) many of them have never been exposed or understood any human language, so much of their language is based off the sounds they made and completely separate from English.


Sorry if I'm being too complicated

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

If you want to do it from scratch, then you'll need a Grammar, Syntax and Vocabulary. And it will be a lot of work for not much benefit because the reader won't be able to understand it without subtitles (footnotes). Unless you just want a couple of words (hello, good-bye, thank you and so on).

[Vanyali]

I've be wary of basing it off ANY language unless that's the premise of the world - basing it off a language generally comes off as being too lazy to make your own and just swapping things around with disregard for that language (one of the many criticisms that faced Eragon's language system; he stole words, then changed things around and said it was a "new language")

As well, you'll need to figure out whether or not they'll be literate. Writing things down tends to make languages change a bit. Being based on natural sounds is going to be very limiting as well, since the only reason we're able to make the large variety of sounds we make is a change in the hyoid bone that lets us manipulate sounds in the throat. That's why apes are stuck with sign language, for the most part - they simply cannot make the same sounds in the same ranges that we do.

[Techno-Druid]

I've be wary of basing it off ANY language unless that's the premise of the world - basing it off a language generally comes off as being too lazy to make your own and just swapping things around with disregard for that language (one of the many criticisms that faced Eragon's language system; he stole words, then changed things around and said it was a "new language")

As well, you'll need to figure out whether or not they'll be literate. Writing things down tends to make languages change a bit. Being based on natural sounds is going to be very limiting as well, since the only reason we're able to make the large variety of sounds we make is a change in the hyoid bone that lets us manipulate sounds in the throat. That's why apes are stuck with sign language, for the most part - they simply cannot make the same sounds in the same ranges that we do.

Yep, that's why I though of a way around it. My story is that a thousand years after massive war on Arabia by America and some other UN countries, in the future, scientists are tasked with genetically engineering soldiers out of animals. So they take the smartest animals; chimps, dolphins, foxes, crows, etc, and they genetically engineer them with human intelligence and a anatomy fit for human speech. The animals are sent to the Arabia in order to fight. The war causes the extinction of society and the apes in the Middle East start to split up into tribes.

The other apes are engineered for the purpose of experimentation and the study of culture and some animals are secretly experimented on vanity reasons (talking dogs, crows used to pick up trash, bears used in construction).


What do you think? I really wanted to do something unique, something no one has really thought of or at least perfected.

[Vanyali]

Well, the problem with that is most of those animals would require severe tinkering to get to be able to mimic human speech - their throats, tongues, and mouths would have to be utterly reworked. A dolphin, for instance, would either not be able to do nasals (if speaking through the mouth) or unable to do anything BUT nasals (if speaking through the blowhole) without some odd throat changes, while a hyoid bone might cause problems in eating due to another bone being placed in the throat (depending where it could be placed).

Crows and foxes would run into a similar problem, though in crows it might be greater since the vocal cords would also have to be thickened and maybe even added to, which would either make them not look like standard crows (and thus not a good candidate for a stealthy fighter, if that's what they'd be) or interfere with flight (which would be a death sentence).

If they really need to speak, the best way would be the superhuman intelligence, but fitted with a translator of some sort... though this would be limited, and require their brains to have been engineered in a way that language is very easy to pick up by machinery, but otherwise htey start to get very unanimal, with the exception of apes and some monkeys.


The apes might also run into issues living in the ME, and the criticisms you'd likely get would be that you are unfavorably painting an entire region as animals (or less than animals). If you're going for extinction of humans in fantasy like this it's really better to get it off planet entirely, even if it's a pseudo-earth.

Last thought though, when doing anything creative get wanting to be "unique" out of your mind - it'll just screw with you. What's unique is how YOU write it, not WHAT you write about, and that should be your main goal: your thoughts on paper, not your unique thoughts only.

[Techno-Druid]

Well, the problem with that is most of those animals would require severe tinkering to get to be able to mimic human speech - their throats, tongues, and mouths would have to be utterly reworked. A dolphin, for instance, would either not be able to do nasals (if speaking through the mouth) or unable to do anything BUT nasals (if speaking through the blowhole) without some odd throat changes, while a hyoid bone might cause problems in eating due to another bone being placed in the throat (depending where it could be placed).

Crows and foxes would run into a similar problem, though in crows it might be greater since the vocal cords would also have to be thickened and maybe even added to, which would either make them not look like standard crows (and thus not a good candidate for a stealthy fighter, if that's what they'd be) or interfere with flight (which would be a death sentence).

If they really need to speak, the best way would be the superhuman intelligence, but fitted with a translator of some sort... though this would be limited, and require their brains to have been engineered in a way that language is very easy to pick up by machinery, but otherwise htey start to get very unanimal, with the exception of apes and some monkeys.


The apes might also run into issues living in the ME, and the criticisms you'd likely get would be that you are unfavorably painting an entire region as animals (or less than animals). If you're going for extinction of humans in fantasy like this it's really better to get it off planet entirely, even if it's a pseudo-earth.

Last thought though, when doing anything creative get wanting to be "unique" out of your mind - it'll just screw with you. What's unique is how YOU write it, not WHAT you write about, and that should be your main goal: your thoughts on paper, not your unique thoughts only.

Well, I know with apes, they lack the human strand of the language gene FOXp2, as well as thinner tongues. As a person of science, chimpanzees and other great apes have the FOXp2 gene, they however lack the two amino acids which give us the tools necessary for speaking and inventing language, such as better motor skills. We've actually put human strands of the gene in mice and found in increase of learning capabilities and different sounding vocalization.

As crows go, I know ravens are capable of mimicking humans and therefore it could be feasible for them to (if they were more intelligent) to develop a vocabulary (I guess, birds aren't my thing). I may or may not do dolphins at this point. For fantasy creatures I also thought of an idea for dwarves, by humans being isolated to islands and eventually evolving smaller and more stout (a process which exists in the real world; called insular dwarfism).

[Arctagon]

First, you want to decide how you want your people to SOUND.

To use LoTR:

Elves tend to use a lot of sliding sounds - /l/, /r/, /s/ .. they trill, for lack of a better word, and seem much more smooth.
Orcs tend to use a lot of hard stops - /t/, /p/, /k/ .. they're hard words, and there's no unnecessary sound.

Using apostrophes make it weird; people pronounce those in different ways. Is ther'nal [ther?nal] [ther-un-nal] [ther-ah-nal], for instance? That messes with the flow of words and makes it require a pronunciation guide.


nixx was on the money with this one, though - mess around with how they express things. mess around with words - do they use "the" words, or is it implied? is it gender qualified? hell, is it even the same subject verb object that we have?

you'll also want a great deal of linguistic knowledge (and general grammatical knowledge) before you start - you'll run into things that you had no idea existed because you grew up using them.

you need to take into account what words might come from another as well - if you have the word 'tree', baby tree will probably incorporate part of that.

Spot-on. All of it. Creating a language from scratch is going to be incredibly difficult without any knowledge in linguistics, and I also think exposure to and at least a basic understanding of how several of the world's language work is going to be invaluable. Languages work so differently around the globe. If you want to say that you are thirsty in Japanese, you literally say 'my throat is dry'. It's a language in which meaning is often not specified and assumed known by the recipient. Other languages require you to stay oriented in order to speak properly. They don't use left and right, but might instead say something like 'there is an ant on your south-southwest leg'. An example is Kuktayor, an aboriginal language in Australia, in which you have to stay oriented just to say hello, because the way you say hello is 'which way are you going?'.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

That's a language I've worked on and off for a while, though it doesn't have any phrases in it (those are somewhere else, iirc). But you can see some of the grammatical structures that I've had to make (and I'm missing some), as well as a way of doing opposites and counting

This is impressive. I think I will bookmark this, so I can have closer look later.

..i like languages

It's so cool to see other people who like languages here. I like them too, heh *snort* oh, oops.

It is debatable whether or not language affects culture or culture affects language. A simple example might be the fact that in Japanese there are different grammatical forms depending on the level of politeness required (e.g. a king a speaking to a peasant would be vastly different than the reverse, with gradations in between the social levels). Is the language like this because the Japanese are culturally more aware of social standing, or are they more aware because of these linguistic distinctions?

Japanese people definitely change their way of speaking depending on the level of politeness require, but don't the majority, if not all, languages do this? It might be more evident in the Japanese language, though, but it's not something I've given much thought. Regarding the rest of your post, I very much agree with what Vanyali said:

I'd say both; the way we see things is heavily influenced by language (for example, groups that see colors different, or have words for emotions that we feel differently/ don't feel), but without those things in a basic form there wouldn't be a need for a word for it.

So, if I had to hit it on one side or another, I'd say language greatly magnifies culture, but culture ultimately starts with being able to express yourself in a certain way.

Especially the last paragraph. Well said.

[Deleted]

Japanese people definitely change their way of speaking depending on the level of politeness require, but don't the majority, if not all, languages do this? It might be more evident in the Japanese language, though, but it's not something I've given much thought.

It's true that people change their register (in English) but this doesn't really correspond to the kind of predetermined changes in structure/inflection/verb conjugation that are found in Japanese for different politeness levels.

[apepi]

A look at morse code and binary might also help you.

[Vanyali]

Well, I know with apes, they lack the human strand of the language gene FOXp2, as well as thinner tongues. As a person of science, chimpanzees and other great apes have the FOXp2 gene, they however lack the two amino acids which give us the tools necessary for speaking and inventing language, such as better motor skills. We've actually put human strands of the gene in mice and found in increase of learning capabilities and different sounding vocalization.

As crows go, I know ravens are capable of mimicking humans and therefore it could be feasible for them to (if they were more intelligent) to develop a vocabulary (I guess, birds aren't my thing). I may or may not do dolphins at this point. For fantasy creatures I also thought of an idea for dwarves, by humans being isolated to islands and eventually evolving smaller and more stout (a process which exists in the real world; called insular dwarfism).

They also lack a hyoid bone and throat structure, in terms of apes - our throats are very specialized (and very poorly constructed, as we can choke on our own spit).

Birds can do /some/ words. Some sounds they just can't do, or can't do as well, though there's some breeds that can make just about any sound... if you were the one that taught them, and if you know generally what they're wanting in some cases because the "accent" is there.

but your dwarves would run into serious issues - for one, they'd have to be stranded on a fairly small island. there could not be a way for them to get to another island; doing so would expand their resources to where they wouldn't find any physical changes. they'd also either have to have limited fishing or limited game - having both would not present the resource scarcity. on top of that, they'd have to have a way to replenish their genes or be lucky enough (and this stretches things a lot) that the foundation people didn't have any recessive problems that would be magnified in future generations. That would be a serious issue, not to mention that the population would likely dwindle until they disappeared entirely.


@Arctagon... yay, someone else that likes languages !

[Varabently]

Here's my take: don't develop an entire language. handwave the fact that everyone understands everyone away using translators or a global language and just create a couple of words for stuff like Yes, No and some profanity. You can have the major speech in English (or whatever language you write in) and let the characters use these words for spur-of-the-moment exlamations.

The problem with developing your own language is that it slows down the reader when reading the plot. It was done for Avatar, GoT and Star Trek because those were visual entertainment and the audience could understand the gist of the language, or even get subtitles. It was done for LotR because Tolkien was a linguist and it added to the immersion.

I have to agree here. Making up your own language for a book series seems like a LOT of extra work.

[Revi]

That sounds like a huge project. I'd pick an already existing language and start fiddling with the rules and letters. If you changed some letters, replaced prefixes and suffixes, changed basic sentence construction and a bit more, you could make it pretty unrecognizable without having to start from scratch.

Icelandic is cool as hell, but probably better to use one you know

[Vanyali]

That sounds like a huge project. I'd pick an already existing language and start fiddling with the rules and letters. If you changed some letters, replaced prefixes and suffixes, changed basic sentence construction and a bit more, you could make it pretty unrecognizable without having to start from scratch.

Icelandic is cool as hell, but probably better to use one you know

nooooo.

this is how you end up with eragon-level "languages", which fall apart when confronted with their own rules

it's actually MORE work to do it this way since you have to learn the language to know how to deconstruct it without it being done poorly

[Deleted]

Start with the sounds and properties of an existing language, and just modify it. Change words around, change meanings, borrow words, alter words, play with structure. Most famous "invented" languages aren't just plucked out of thin air or built from the ground up. Then again, that only really works if you actually KNOW other languages inside and out already, soooo...

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/lifesty...ade-up-8312114

- - - Updated - - -

nooooo.

this is how you end up with eragon-level "languages", which fall apart when confronted with their own rules

It's also how Tolkien came up with the Elvish languages. One of them borrows heavily from Welsh and the other from Finnish (apparently, I don't know Finnish so I couldn't say). Dothraki is "inspired by" existing languages too - how far it's not easy to say since there's no complete document of the linguist's work floating about out there. You're right though, you would of course need to know the language you were going to base your made-up one off of first.

[Dhuzgan]

Short answer: Make a list of sounds that fit the idea of the language you wanna make, and create a massive dictionary of words using only those sounds. Custom grammar/Orthography optional.

Long answer: This link has been a tremendous help for me: http://www.zompist.com/kit.html

[Deleted]

I know it's a strange question, but how do I create a simplistic language? I mean I'm doing it for the book series that I'm about to start on and I need tips and/or possible help with how to develop a simplistic, but still very fleshed out language that some of the "races" in my story could speak (most of them are beast-races). I Mena I watched these videos to help me, but I seem to have trouble intermixing my lore with any possible language I could come up with.



Any advice?

First you need to study general linguistics, specifically morphology and syntax. Study morphemes and glossing and then proceed to create a language with your own rules. T. E. Payne has some great books about linguistics.

[Vanyali]

It's also how Tolkien came up with the Elvish languages. Dothraki is "inspired by" existing languages too - how far it's not easy to say since there's no complete document of the linguist's work floating about out there. You're right though, you would of course need to know a language you were going to base your made-up one off of first.

Inspired yes, a few letters/ sentence structure, no. You couldn't take Tolkien's languages and insert it into Welsh and have the words match; it was inspired by the consonant split, but wasn't directly lifted from it.

The words in Eragon can, for the most part, be put back into his source language and work still, because he changed very little about the words, mangled the structure, and called it a day.

[Zindai]

Look if you wanna do this, do it right and start with this.

http://www.zompist.com/kit.html

Good advice for a starter It was fairly straight forward.