How often do you use 4pc for resto?

[solidbear]

While I don't think the 4set is very good, I can see how you can fit it into your playstyle with the 2pc bonus.

With the 2pc, Nature's swiftness now works on the next 3 spells.
So, what the devs are intending is this: NS + RG + HT +HT or NS + HT + HT + RG or NS + HT + HT + HT.
The max my regrowth can get from NS is a 56k heal (glyphed). My HT, on the other hand, can hit for 96k if it crits with NS (44k if non crit with NS).

Using Regrowth or HT, there isn't a huge difference between the two in using them, unless HT crits, then Healing Touch is the much better option to use with NS.

If you do what the devs are trying to aim for, you can get the bonus from the 4pc every minute or so, sometimes more if you're casting more HTs. This 4 piece is not intended to be used for every wild growth cast you use.

[Tiberria]

While I don't think the 4set is very good, I can see how you can fit it into your playstyle with the 2pc bonus.

With the 2pc, Nature's swiftness now works on the next 3 spells.
So, what the devs are intending is this: NS + RG + HT +HT or NS + HT + HT + RG or NS + HT + HT + HT.
The max my regrowth can get from NS is a 56k heal (glyphed). My HT, on the other hand, can hit for 96k if it crits with NS (44k if non crit with NS).

Using Regrowth or HT, there isn't a huge difference between the two in using them, unless HT crits, then Healing Touch is the much better option to use with NS.

If you do what the devs are trying to aim for, you can get the bonus from the 4pc every minute or so, sometimes more if you're casting more HTs. This 4 piece is not intended to be used for every wild growth cast you use.

You are forgetting the Living Seed modifier, which adds a guaranteed +50% Living Seed to every glyphed Regrowth cast (which multiplies with the 50% NS bonus) and at least a 75%-80% chance of a +50% Living Seed to every unglyphed Regrowth cast (you will have generally a minimum 15-20% buffed Crit rating). In comparison, NS-HT only has a 15%-20% chance to Crit and get that extra Living Seed healing, making it have a much lower expected healing per cast than NS-RG. That makes using NS charges on HT a significant throughput loss, and one that almost definitely offsets any gains from proccing the 4 piece once a minute.

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Also, if you have Regrowth unglyphed, Nature's Swiftness increases both the healing and duration of the HoT effect by 50%. That means that HoT lasts 18 seconds instead of 12 and does 50% more healing per tick over those 18 seconds as well. That adds an extra ~14k healing to each RG cast on top of the Living Seed effect if you choose to unglyph it.

[solidbear]

It can be argued that the devs are intending us to mix up our use of NS though, with a mix of using HT. Its a fair argument to say that the 2 pc ties fairly well with the 4set if you use them together.

Like I said, I still don't think it is a very good 4 set bonus, but I can see the line of thinking coming from the Devs and what their reasoning is for it.

[Sprucelee]

You are forgetting the Living Seed modifier, which adds a guaranteed +50% Living Seed to every glyphed Regrowth cast (which multiplies with the 50% NS bonus) and at least a 75%-80% chance of a +50% Living Seed to every unglyphed Regrowth cast (you will have generally a minimum 15-20% buffed Crit rating). In comparison, NS-HT only has a 15%-20% chance to Crit and get that extra Living Seed healing, making it have a much lower expected healing per cast than NS-RG. That makes using NS charges on HT a significant throughput loss, and one that almost definitely offsets any gains from proccing the 4 piece once a minute.

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Also, if you have Regrowth unglyphed, Nature's Swiftness increases both the healing and duration of the HoT effect by 50%. That means that HoT lasts 18 seconds instead of 12 and does 50% more healing per tick over those 18 seconds as well. That adds an extra ~14k healing to each RG cast on top of the Living Seed effect if you choose to unglyph it.

You are overvaluing living seed some as it does not proc on all damage; additionally, damage (that may proc it) can not just be assumed to always be taken within 15 seconds.

[Hypasonic]

Yeah, if only living seed procced from all damage and not just melee attacks/abilities that are considered melee attacks. (Least thats how it seems) Heck, would be nice if they just made it an extra HoT, least it would get some* use.

*Outside of tank healing

[Jayjayhey]

Why the hell would you use NS at ANY POINT with HT? You simply just don't do that. You give up HPS.

[Sprucelee]

If anyone is interested, use this expression to check healing done during NS:

in range from type = "applybuff" and ability.name = "Nature's Swiftness" to type = "removebuff" and ability.name = "Nature's Swiftness" group by source end

I compared HT to regrowth across my and other logs, and HT always came out ahead (ignoring LS).

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Why the hell would you use NS at ANY POINT with HT? You simply just don't do that. You give up HPS.

Please show your math/logs

[Tiberria]

You are overvaluing living seed some as it does not proc on all damage; additionally, damage (that may proc it) can not just be assumed to always be taken within 15 seconds.

Living Seed not always proccing on all damage/getting wasted because no further damage occurs is at least partially counteracted by the fact that when it does proc, it tends to have a near 0% overheal percentage. On most of my logs since getting 2 piece, my effective Living Seed healing is very close to if not exceeding 50% of the healing of the direct healing portion of Regrowth (and I generally don't run Regrowth glyphed). Based on that, I don't think that assuming Living Seed adds ~50% extra effective healing to the direct heal crit portion of the spell is that far off when comparing spell usage. Plus, if it's going to roll off before that target takes any damage within 15 seconds, does the actual healing really matter in the first place in terms of comparing what spell to be used?

[Jayjayhey]

I don't need logs to prove something that is an accepted fact on these forums.

[Tiberria]

If anyone is interested, use this expression to check healing done during NS:

in range from type = "applybuff" and ability.name = "Nature's Swiftness" to type = "removebuff" and ability.name = "Nature's Swiftness" group by source end

I compared HT to regrowth across my and other logs, and HT always came out ahead (ignoring LS).

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Please show your math/logs

Of course HT is going to come out on top when you completely ignore Living Seed. Assuming you have 20% raid buffed crit %, Living Seed increases the theoretical raw healing of unglyphed Regrowth by +40%, the raw healing of glyphed Regrowth by +50% and the raw healing of HT by only 10%. That 30%-40% differential is a huge deal.

The real question is determining the accurate effectiveness/usage rates of Living Seed, including factoring in overheal on LS vs overheal on RG/HT itself.

[Sprucelee]

If you are curious, he is a comparison of NS+HT and NS+RG between our latest darmac kills:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ce=5&options=8

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ce=5&options=8

Summation:

Average NS+HT = 84,397
Average NS+RG =70,748

Of note, my living seed was actually higher (though the fight was 1 minute longer).

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I don't need logs to prove something that is an accepted fact on these forums.

This debate is old and crusty, and there are arguments both ways. I certainly laugh at the notion that it is an "accepted fact".

I trust Hamlet , in large part because he was part (and central to) of all those debates when there was a much more healthy theory-crafting community on EJ.

http://www.wowhead.com/guide=2171/re...on-druid-guide

COOLDOWNS

Nature's Swiftness: Despite the 1 minute cooldown, a key part of the healing arsenal. Don't hesitate to use it whenever HoTs and Swiftmend aren't enough to get someone to safe HP. You generally want to make macro that casts this and Healing Touch at the same time, such as:

#showtooltip Nature's Swiftness
/use Nature's Swiftness
/use [@mouseover, help][] Healing Touch

[Hypasonic]

Isn't the swiftmend RG v HT based on rng? I was under the assumption that a glyphed RG>HT purely because of the guaranteed crit, if HT crits it does more healing but thats if it crits no?

[Irisel]

It does feel like two 2-pc strength tier bonuses, rather than one 2-pc and one 4pc strength. But, it's not the end of the freaking world, it's an OKAY bonus, just not omfg amazing... considering it is only the first tier of the xpac.

Removing the sequential part though, would make it FAR less crappy and imo remove all room for QQing.

[Sprucelee]

Isn't the swiftmend RG v HT based on rng? I was under the assumption that a glyphed RG>HT purely because of the guaranteed crit, if HT crits it does more healing but thats if it crits no?

Yep, HT ends up winning on average due to the big crits, but you are correct, it is RNG. Regrowth will be more consistent (and potentially more due to LS), though the LS portion is the part that is always hard to quantify.

This debate is really old, some go for the consistency, some like the potential for bigger crits and higher overall average. If you were tank healing primarily, I could see regrowth being the clear winner, in that case you would be stacking LS and almost entirely realizing its potential.

[Skyfall]

Assuming x% crit, and using my current unbuffed values, Glyphed RG, and assuming Living seed actually heals for its full value (which is prob a pretty poor assumption):

HT: 30250 * (1-x) + 90750 * (x)
RG: 54768

So solving that, you should need 40% crit to make HT better than RG. So it could be worth it on a lifebloomed target already (dont forget about enhanced lifebloom ), even if you give living seed its full value, depending on your crit. HT scales better with spellpower too, so eventually it should completely surpass RG with NS, but now is probably not quite there yet, unless you strongly devalue living seed (which would take more analysis to see how much it actually heals for on average). This example is biased towards regrowth in almost every possible way too, so it may be next tier than HT is just straight up better.

Totally unrelated to the above, but living seed should just be an absorb shield... Would be much better.

[Hypasonic]

Yeah would be nice, don't think blizz will be giving us absorbs anytime soon though, maybe they could give us that as part of a future tier bonus, would be better than what we have as our 4 set now!

[theburned]

If you are curious, he is a comparison of NS+HT and NS+RG between our latest darmac kills:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ce=5&options=8

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ce=5&options=8

Summation:

Average NS+HT = 84,397
Average NS+RG =70,748

Of note, my living seed was actually higher (though the fight was 1 minute longer).

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This debate is old and crusty, and there are arguments both ways. I certainly laugh at the notion that it is an "accepted fact".

I trust Hamlet , in large part because he was part (and central to) of all those debates when there was a much more healthy theory-crafting community on EJ.

http://www.wowhead.com/guide=2171/re...on-druid-guide

COOLDOWNS

Nature's Swiftness: Despite the 1 minute cooldown, a key part of the healing arsenal. Don't hesitate to use it whenever HoTs and Swiftmend aren't enough to get someone to safe HP. You generally want to make macro that casts this and Healing Touch at the same time, such as:

#showtooltip Nature's Swiftness
/use Nature's Swiftness
/use [@mouseover, help][] Healing Touch

Noone argues that HT heals for more than RG, but your numbers lack an increase of 6% on HT and 50% on regrowth, which puts RG on 105k and HT on just about 90k. That is the numbers, the thing is that regrowth is also more reliable, which is the reason we pick the regrowth glyph in the first place.

you are using sources that are considered to be a guide for the community/newbees, thus very lacking.... thus it doesn't prove a single thing.
Who wrote it does not matter, if his opinions don't match up to the math, then it could just aswell be hitler who wrote it, but nobody cares.

[anon5123]

The fact that Celestalon is defending the bonus on twitter makes me irrationally angry. I really wish he would just acknowledge it's garbage - don't give me that "different playstyles" crap. You used to be able to play a melee hunter, but that doesn't mean they should have made a set bonus around that playstyle.

Priests are getting the same thing with one of our T100 talents, Saving Grace. It was shit through alpha, shit through beta, shit at release, and continues to be shit, yet Blizzard refuses to change it and just keeps throwing number buffs at it in hopes that players will use it.

If it's any consolation to you Druids, Disc's 4pc is really shitty too.

[Tiberria]

Priests are getting the same thing with one of our T100 talents, Saving Grace. It was shit through alpha, shit through beta, shit at release, and continues to be shit, yet Blizzard refuses to change it and just keeps throwing number buffs at it in hopes that players will use it.

If it's any consolation to you Druids, Disc's 4pc is really shitty too.

Yes, but Disc Priests have also been grossly overpowered for the entirety of this expansion in PvE (and almost all of the last one too), so they can deal with having a weak set bonus and one non viable talent. Druids aren't really in that same position of strength, effectively competing with 4 healing specs for 1-2 throughput healer spots in a typical raid comp.

Plus, Moment of Clarity has been nearly completely unusable for the entire expansion, and isn't really usable even with the 6.1 buffs, and it is also a L100 talent.

[Hypasonic]

It irritates me, not only is our tier gear pretty crappy itemisation wise, the 4 set bonus is just terrible. I would glady accept one or the other, good itemisation but a shit 4 set bonus or a good 4 set bonus but shit itemisation. But we are stuck with both, and that sucks. Discs can find use of their 4 set bonus (Itemisation assuming) but druids cannot. A disc is always going to pop archangel, but a druid is never going to cast 2 sequential healing touches just to proc the 4 set.

Bummer.