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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowsedge View Post
    As a dedicated raider looking to find ways to gear my toon better I look to LFG to find raids. I'm not a raid leader, just a participator. The question is, Why do so many of the groups I join fail?. I know I can do my job to a very well standard. Why is it that the built in group finder makes it harder for people to be successful?
    I felt an overwhelming need to post this in response to the OP's question.

    But in all seriousness I think it boils down to the following;
    1. There is no,either real or perceived, social contract of responsibility. Behaving badly still gets the same reward as being an exemplar of social etiquette.
    2. Sadly Blizzard's current implemented design of VTK, while it has come a long way, still isn't sufficient. And people know and abuse it.
    3. LFR since the inception has been called "easy-mode" and "training wheels". And when a mechanic proves to be difficult its only a matter of time till Blizzard either nerfs or removes it entirely. And people have gotten used to queuing for LFR and anticipating that paradigm will prove true time and time again.
    4. Trolls will be trolls. And people will be people. The internet is the single greatest reflection of the depravity and cruelty of humanity.
    Vote with your wallet if you don't like something. Otherwise just keep your mouth shut.

  2. #42
    I think many pugs fail because the people who joined expected a better pug. So if you wipe once on a easy boss it's all over or if people are doing shit hps/dps and dont get kicked after one boss.

  3. #43
    I take slight issue with this whole "everyone wants to be carried, not do the carrying."

    When I join PuGs, it's usually to kill a couple of bosses that maybe I missed during our guild's raids. I've done progression on these bosses and I've gone through the wipes on them. So when I join a PuG, I'm not looking to go through that again. I don't drop group on the first wipe, I wait it out a bit, and I am usually top 3 DPS while also managing mechanics, doing my job. I have no problem carrying, and sometimes I enjoy being that guy who can basically ensure the kill. But I drop when I see multiple other people failing on the same thing over and over again.

    Those of us who do feel fine with carrying just can't carry 30% of the group's weight. And if we've already done progression, then yeah, why would we want to basically do it again when we're just looking for a quick kill?

    Last, if I join a Heroic Blackhand PuG, yeah I expect wipes and so that's fine. If I join a Heroic Gruul PuG, well I'm going to be less patient because the requirements are lower and more people have killed it. My patience correlates pretty closely with the difficulty of the boss, it's not just "OH WE WIPED K BYE."

  4. #44
    Legendary! MonsieuRoberts's Avatar
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    PuGs fail because no one in the group cares.
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  5. #45
    They basically fail because:

    1) People don't want to put in a lot of time on progressing, they want quick runs with quick results;
    2) Everyone wants to be carried but almost nobody is willing to do the carrying.

    Entitled mentality at it's best.

  6. #46
    Because the type of person to PUG is the type of person who isn't co-ordinated enough to join a raiding guild.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ballrug View Post
    Yeah, Blizzard hosed F&F and casual pug raiders when LFR was nerfed to the point where it was totally uninteresting, and Normal stayed normal, not Flex, difficulty.

    Raid participation (total of all difficulties, including LFR) has dropped by over 50% since the release of WoD so one assumes Blizzard is getting the message, although, who knows what they will do about it.
    Got a source for raid participation has dropped by over 50%? Pretty sure Blizz reported the opposite way around. I know LFR participation is fairly low because there is little reason for geared out raiders to go and do it because making a tier bonus is worth dropping 30 item levels from your WF normal pieces to LFR is a dps increase etc.

    Also Normal HM atleast is incredibly easy for the most part (only imp is slightly harder in normal), and even the first 5-6 bosses in BRF normal as easy. If you could do SoO mechanics on flex, then you can do those early bosses in HM and BRF (gear dependant). Id actually say HM normal is substantially easier than SoO Flex mechanic wise given equal gear in relation to target of the raid (so 640'ish for HM normal and 520'ish for SoO Flex). People I think are stuck on how easy flex became when you came back in and steamrolled it at 560-570+ item level, and then remember that as the difficulty but then compare it to progression at normal item levels for the current raid.

    Also PuG'ing a raid is easier than ever so casual pug raiders should have it easier than ever before. No more needing addons or external sites to organise a PuG raid.

  8. #48
    PUGs fail because people like to listen to themselves talk on vent for 30min before a pull. Too much down time between attempts.
    Raid lead usually just say oh we need ext for 3 stacks blah blah without actually getting healers to co-ord, and when they do need external, they keep quiet and wonder why they died.

    IMHO. poor raid leading in general and too much downtime between pulls.

  9. #49
    Stood in the Fire
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    Lack of coordination is a big thing, and unless they have a vent/mumble etc... then communication is another biggie.
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  10. #50
    Big (and probably only) drawback with the new group finder tool is how people leave after literally every pull, kill or wipe, very often. People are always after one or two specific bosses, and once they get those kills, they leave. Its especially annoying and discouraging when you lose one or two tanks after a pull and you have to sit waiting for 15-20 minutes to refill.

    I've also seen a few raid leaders throw a group together, get everyone grouped up in front of the boss, and readycheck without saying a word. This is ok for a few bosses but for the vast majority it isn't. Raid leaders thinking they can get away without any voice chat in a pure pug in what is basically brand new content. Another small issue I've seen is raid leaders asking for arbitrary healing requirements then overhealing bosses. I've seen a group 9 heal 25 man kromog, then after a wipe kicked all the healers under 25k.

    Additionally been a part of several "easy one shot, achivement required" overgeared N Blackhand groups that fail hard because they refuse to do any coordinating or communicating.

    So all in all, I'd say huge downtime between bosses if you lose someone, lack of coordination/communication, and raid leaders that have no idea what they're doing past throwing the group together.
    Last edited by Notdev; 2015-02-22 at 04:06 PM.

  11. #51
    As a former GM and raid leader of a successful guild for more than 5 years, and unfortunately one that disbanded in MoP and tried to rebuild for WoD, I can tell you that there is no incentive for me to lead a raid. I did it for two months with Highmaul and simply refuse to do so for BRF, at least for now. I am actively looking for a guild to join and until then am content with getting no gear, even if it means I simply quit the game because my gear level falls too far behind and I am not viable as a player anymore. It is better than all of the terrible people that hide behind their anonymous identities and do terrible, obnoxious and toxic things to other players. "Back in my day" these players would be blacklisted and they would have to reroll because the community would hold them accountable.

    Now? NOW? HA! We cant even right click and ignore them because they are usually on a different server and or "Player not found".

    What reward does a raid leader get?

    • I cannot reserve gear or people will not join.
    • I cannot bring underperforming guild members or friends to learn fights or even gear or others will leave.
    • I can spend hours sifting through the finder to find appropriate classes, run the raid, do the comp, call out events and cooldowns, make assignments and even provide the voice comms and still have some entitled ungrateful prick douche bag come in and start arguing with me about his preferred strategy or trolls that join, pull the boss and leave the group, specifically to wipe us with no recourse, not even the ability to right click and ignore them.
    • Every replaced bad player is followed by more players that do not want to wait to refill one spot, now there is more than one spot to fill.
    • Every wipe is met with players leaving, even after the first pull, and typically 20 minutes of waiting to get an appropriate fill.
    • Every boss kill is met with half the raid leaving because that is the only boss they needed or they do not want to wait to refill.
    • Bla, bla, bla.

    Treat positive players, especially those actively leading successful raids, and you end up with a toxic, apathetic community in Premades and those positive leading players finding a guild, starting a guild or leaving the game. Either way they will not be helping anyone in Premades for long.
    Last edited by Dejablue; 2015-02-22 at 04:22 PM.

  12. #52
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Wrath folks..

    The quitters that leave after the first wipes or instantly fall upon the players that make mistakes and are unwilling to solve them.

    As someone who has a tank alt and is nearing the point of starting raids - and never has tanked raids before - i dread the moment that i'll step into one.

  13. #53
    Deleted
    Because generally players who partake in PUGs' are at best mediocre raiders and more often than not are quite new to the game and are generally bad players.

    There are some exceptions of course but generally speaking PUG players are bad and Guild raiders are better.

  14. #54
    You've got to ask yourself, why did pug raids work so well and go so smoothly when Flex premiered, and why are they so terrible (unless made up of mostly experienced organized raiders) now?

  15. #55
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    Everyone wants to be carried, I remember it just like ICC, Dragon Soul & SoO. The RL in the pug wants to have the best players so he can be carried. But those who want to be carried can't get into a group because the RL wants to be carried & not carry people.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by bajskorv View Post
    A lot of people 'know' they can do their job to a very well standard even though they really can't, is the main reason I think.
    Dunning-Kruger effect.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Packers01 View Post
    So because you raid with people who are terrible the raiding is bad? Sound logic.......
    He's pointing out that the supposed goal of serving "friends and family" guilds does not appear to have been met.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  18. #58
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    Imo it all hinges on the raid leader. Get a good raid leader, and the team will go far. Without one, you go nowhere, no matter how good the players in the group are.

  19. #59
    Obviously it's going to be harder with people playing on alts instead of their mains (those being the better of the players, often)
    A lot joins and go "oh gotta go", within a few minutes, or after first wipe.
    People ress incompetent players, so when the tank or healers fuck up you can't ress them
    People rarely want to wipe one hour on a boss with complete strangers, so they keep leaving.
    RL tend not to fathom the idea of getting it being a must to have 1-2 locks in raid for summons to replace leavers fast.

    I just stick around, wiping and sometimes it goes down. Would obviously love to get into a good group that had warlocks/hunters/warriors/rogues/boomkins doing more aoe damage than my feral that is 5-10 ilvls below them, but hell. It's a pug. Have some fucking patience and be nice to people.
    Everyone has so much to say
    They talk talk talk their lives away

  20. #60
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowsedge View Post
    As a dedicated raider looking to find ways to gear my toon better I look to LFG to find raids. I'm not a raid leader, just a participator. The question is, Why do so many of the groups I join fail?. I know I can do my job to a very well standard. Why is it that the built in group finder makes it harder for people to be successful?
    People are stupid and are looking for a free carry. Group finder is a cesspoll for ... well, worthless is a strong word, but it's hard to find people with more than half a brain.
    Last edited by mmocb77704d67b; 2015-02-24 at 07:39 AM.

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