METHOD 10/10! World First Blackhand DOWN!

[Gorsameth]

What? How the hell they have less gear if they killed imp on first week and bh on second week?

On their first kill they will have had less mythic gear then later guilds will have when they kill it.

[Dracodraco]

Progress/Time is meaningless because of gear differences. Method/Paragon will obviously spend more time as they have less gear than later guilds who are slower and have more resets of gear.

While this is partly true, because of the top guilds spending such an extraordinary amount of time, they also run tons and tons of split runs. Method's first recorded mythic kill in BRF had 684.5 item level average. That's 1 average item level more than my guild, which did split runs (although only 2) - and then you have to remember that adding tier instead of 685 Highmaul items would actually cause their item level to drop, not raise (along with better itemised 680 pieces etc).

Point being, back in the day where split runs weren't relevant, this would indeed be true. It's also mostly true for BRF in specific, because all guilds got to gear up in highmaul to +680 before BRF was released. The difference between 2 and 5 split runs back in Highmaul, though, was 661 vs 668 between my guild and Method. It took us a reset to get to 668 from 661, but by then method had jumped from 668 to 672, and so forth. Yes, more resets inevitably means more gear, but due to split runs, guilds will usually need about a month to catch up to the top contenders.

[Unforgivenn]

On their first kill they will have had less mythic gear then later guilds will have when they kill it.

oh got it
/10chars

[Deleted]

The difference between 2 and 5 split runs back in Highmaul, though, was 661 vs 668 between my guild and Method. It took us a reset to get to 668 from 661, but by then method had jumped from 668 to 672, and so forth. Yes, more resets inevitably means more gear, but due to split runs, guilds will usually need about a month to catch up to the top contenders.

Yeah, r1 guilds will usually have higher ilvl at the opening of a raid compared to guilds that get lower ranks. These lower ranked guilds do usually require a lot more gear to actually kill the bosses that matter, i.e the later bosses in the raid. Take your own guild, Echoes (rank 50-100ish), as an example:

Paragon Mythic Imperator first kill: ~668.14
Echoes Mythic Imperator first kill: ~680.46

Method Heroic Garrosh first kill: ~566.65
Echoes Heroic Garrosh first kill: ~574.22

Method Heroic Lei Shen first kill: ~525.78
Echoes Heroic Lei Shen first kill: ~537.62

So not only do you have full access to videos etc. from previous kills, but you also have about 10 ilvls more than that specific raid's winner did on their first kill.

[Gondlem]

Yeah, it doesn't take too long to outscale the top guilds in gear despite the split runs, just because of the time lapse between the first kills and the later ones. There are already 72 guilds in the world with higher average guild-wide ilvl than Method had for their first Blackhand kill for instance, including every guild that is currently working on it. Next week it'll be hundreds of guilds.

[LordBalkoth]

Blizzard is really f*cked in the head company. They are upset about "shortcuts" in Everbloom affecting CM ladders but blatant flagrant violations of TOS go unnoticed. Clearly noticing will ever happen to method now. I wonder what else are the "cool kids" allowed to do, buy gold, dupe, exploit? I wish they were honest about not caring about what happened (even a tweet would have been nice) but they don't care what anyone else thinks.

[Dracodraco]

Yeah, r1 guilds will usually have higher ilvl at the opening of a raid compared to guilds that get lower ranks. These lower ranked guilds do usually require a lot more gear to actually kill the bosses that matter, i.e the later bosses in the raid. Take your own guild, Echoes (rank 50-100ish), as an example:

Paragon Mythic Imperator first kill: ~668.14
Echoes Mythic Imperator first kill: ~680.46

Method Heroic Garrosh first kill: ~566.65
Echoes Heroic Garrosh first kill: ~574.22

Method Heroic Lei Shen first kill: ~525.78
Echoes Heroic Lei Shen first kill: ~537.62

So not only do you have full access to videos etc. from previous kills, but you also have about 10 ilvls more than that specific raid's winner did on their first kill.

Note that Paragon was ~673 avg ilvl, not 668 - back then they had 21 raiders geared up, and the tool was tracking 25 people, so their avg got lowered significantly due to 4x undergeared alt-characters. We also almost got lei shen in 532 avg (killed it night of item upgrades instead of the 1% wipe we had before reset), but yea, point doesn't change and I understand that - it's just that it doesn't change as QUICKLY as the guy was implying (from week to week). It requires a good few months for the ilvl creep to settle in.

[Claynoe]

Not sure. Group Therapy was 5/10 after 16 hrs of raiding while Method was 7/10 after 16hrs

We've been doing pretty bad after the first week of mythic progression. Although you really shouldn't compare us to Method and Paragon I think we're a good guild, but we're not at that lvl quite yet xd

[Deleted]

Not sure. Group Therapy was 5/10 after 16 hrs of raiding while Method was 7/10 after 16hrs

You do realize I also count all that split farming, right? All those set bonuses, trinkets, weapons, the raid testing done on beta. It all adds up and makes the first bosses a joke. I play a caster so I take the caster trinkets as example. They are 680 ilvl, and all of them are better for every caster DPS even if the other one is 685 (plain vs plain). Now, as you do the first bosses easier, you can coin those and gear up from those easier and then spend your time to progress on the more difficult bosses.

Group Therapy doesn't split farm, and its AFAIK the best guild in the world which doesn't split farm. Correct me if I'm wrong cause I am interested in this type of guild (low amount of investment / high reward). Its a competition on its own, just like X hours/week is a competition on its own.

Also, while videos are absolutely an aid and tool for less progressed guilds, you still need to work with the composition you have and it is downright insulting to assume those guilds would be unable to use their brain and come up with their own tactics for a fight.

So, again, tracking the real amount of hours invested in raiding is quite an interesting measurement. Even if want to compare less progressed guilds with each other. Cause I got guilds on my realm which raid almost twice as much as my guild, and yet they only have like 1 or 2 more bosses down. Are they better? Hard to say...

No because videos make the content far easier. And also Group Therapy is mostly alts of people that have already killed the bosses.

Mostly? Nah, not anymore.

[Dangg]

Group Therapy doesn't split farm, and its AFAIK the best guild in the world which doesn't split farm.

Nihilum doesn't splitfarm. Best in the World for sure.

[psyquest]

Why not actually have different ladders:

One for guilds that raid 2 nights/ Week
One for guilds that raid 3 nights/ Week
One for guilds that raid 4 nights/ Week
Etc..
One for Guilds with no time constraints (current ladder)

For instance on my server, a guild is one kill ahead of mine. They raid 6 nights/week, we raid 3 nights. Who do you think people think is better with the current ladder system? This pushes players to go to guild that are actually not really good beside throwing more hours against bosses.

[Gondlem]

Because having 50 different ladders for every level of commitment is silly, and because they'd be impossible to properly police anyway. How do you tell a three night a week guild from a four night a week guild? Just ask them? What about a guild that raids 3 nights a week most weeks but does 5 nights one week out of the tier? And so on.

Besides, assuming a less progressed guild is better than a more progressed guild because they put in less hours per boss is often pretty misleading, given how much bosses are progressively nerfed by gear, public knowledge of strats etc.

[Vestig3]

Ye and what if a guild that raids 3 days a week decides to go for an extra day because progress has been that good.

[Claynoe]

There is a "ladder" for every 1-2days, 3d, 4d, 5d raiding guild on wowprogress. I don't know about other guilds, but we aim to kill bosses in a timely manner and to stay the number one 2day raiding guild (that doesn't extend beyond the schedule listed). I don't think having a separate race for each individual "bracket" would serve any point beyond what we already have.

As Gondlem pointed out, you can't really compare a 2 or 3 day raiding guild to the top guilds as no one would know how much they could've done with a 2 or 3 day schedule.

[Deleted]

Don't think there's an official ladder, just more awareness about your direct competitors, and those are not necessarily the guilds which are ranked right above and below you on the realm or top world list. AFAIK Group Therapy raids 8 hours/week, there are not many guilds which raid that little yet achieve as much as Group Therapy. Its something to take your hat off to and bow to.

[Axelond]

Why not actually have different ladders:

One for guilds that raid 2 nights/ Week
One for guilds that raid 3 nights/ Week
One for guilds that raid 4 nights/ Week
Etc..
One for Guilds with no time constraints (current ladder)

For instance on my server, a guild is one kill ahead of mine. They raid 6 nights/week, we raid 3 nights. Who do you think people think is better with the current ladder system? This pushes players to go to guild that are actually not really good beside throwing more hours against bosses.

There is a option for this on wowprogress however nobody gives a damn about 3 day raiding guilds.

[Dracodraco]

The issue with the wowprogress brackets are that no one respects them. There's plenty of guilds that say they're 5/days a week and raid similiar hours to for example my guild, but when it actually comes time to progress, they up their hours by +1-2 days a week for the first few resets, then fall back to their "normal". Issue is, after 2 weeks of intensive raiding, almost everything is cleared nowadays anyway, meaning the guilds who does it spends more time as a 6-7 day guild with +1 hr a day, than they do as a 5 day guild with -1 hr . Highmaul is a great example, it gets far more pronounced with short tiers.

[Aoewy]

Well, for those who wonder if the top guilds could kill it again in a reset, Method just killed him again.

Scott McMillan ‏@Methodsco 4m4 minutes ago
Finally got round to killing BH mythic again, felt easy Kappa

[Deleted]

Skarkuggz : "Rekilled Blackhand in 1 hour to refresh memory. This fight becomes so easy with gear sadly, really disappointing fight "

[Deleted]

Skarkuggz : "Rekilled Blackhand in 1 hour to refresh memory. This fight becomes so easy with gear sadly, really disappointing fight "

Yo, and Paragon had one additional reset full of gear + twice the amount of tries. This makes it clear, who's the worlds best guild!