France to implement secular value uni courses for Imams.

[Deleted]

France said Wednesday it will encourage imams to take civics lessons amid fears of growing radicalisation among its Muslim community. But could the country be jeopardizing its secularist tradition by treading on religious ground?

Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve on Wednesday outlined plans to combat radicalisation among France’s large and diverse Muslim community, with the emphasis of the reforms placed on opening channels of dialogue between the government and Muslim leaders.

Cazeneuve said France would establish a new forum for dialogue that would include the participation of the official French Muslim Council (CFCM), as well as imams and intellectuals who represent a wider section of Muslims living in the country. The minister said better protecting Mosques and Muslim centres amid an escalation in Islamophobic attacks was also on the agenda.

However, one announcement drew particular attention: the French government will push imams to take university-level civics classes. French authorities are acutely aware of the conundrum this last reform poses. France’s staunchly-defended laicité, its strict interpretation of the division between church and state, prevents the government from intervening in the organisation of a religious group.

Cazeneuve was quick to underscore that the diploma in French secularism would not be mandatory for imams, unless they were Muslim chaplains working in prisons or the military.

French media have extensively reported on the radicalisation of youths while incarcerated; two of the three attackers involved in the Paris attacks in early January adopted extreme Islamic views while behind bars.

In the wake of the deadly violence, and amid rising anti-Semitism in France, some are applauding the idea of more civics training for imams before they are allowed to give spiritual guidance to inmates.

“It’s a step in the right direction,” said Pierre Conesa, a former Defence ministry official who recently wrote a report on countering radicalisation in France. “The idea is that the chaplains [working in prisons] will be recruited by the justice ministry. In the past they’ve worked almost on a volunteer basis.”

But even a seemingly modest and sensible initiative raises a difficult question. By trying to defend its cherished secular identity by keeping fanaticism at bay, in prisons and elsewhere, is France in fact endangering laicité when it engages in a process of vetting imams?

An ‘anti-secular’ attitude

According to Odon Vallet, a French academic and expert on the history of religions, French authorities would be wrong to provide chaplains with any theological training, regardless of political affiliation. “Whether Jewish, Catholic, Protestant or Muslim, chaplains can only receive theological training from their own religion,” Vallet insisted.

On the other hand, he said the government would not be jeopardising its secular principles by “demanding a certain conduct” from chaplains in regard to the state’s authority and knowledge of French law. In other words, the state could require civics training for imams, but classes should never stray into religious debate.

Other experts are less ambiguous. “I think the government is completely on the wrong trail, it has adopted a completely anti-secular attitude,” said Henri Pena-Ruiz, a French philosopher and author of the Dictionary for the Lovers of Secularism (Dictionnaire amoureux de la laïcite).

He said the idea of using public money to finance civics lessons for imams would create a dangerous dependency between the state and religious entities, and was reminiscent of France before the 1789 Revolution.

“Laicité today is based on mutual independence,” Pena-Ruiz insisted. “I think the state has no business straightening up the house of any religious group. The state’s duty is to uphold the laws of the Republic, ensuring they are respected by everyone – that’s it.”

Two-tier laicité?

There is at least one other problem with the measure, and that is the danger of two-tier laicité: one for Islam and another for other religions. The founding principle of laicité is that the state makes no distinction between religions and no faith is placed above another under any circumstance.

Cazeneuve made no mention of mandatory university diplomas for Catholic or Jewish chaplains.

In the past France has often treated Islam as an exception to the rule, and to some observers it appears that history is being repeated. In their drive to stamp out radicalisation, French authorities may only be discrediting laicité and fermenting bitterness among millions of its citizens who will once again feel like the targets of discrimination.

“I am not sure Muslim leaders are going to happily receive the news that they need to be re-educated,” said Pena-Ruiz. “I wonder if Muslims are not going to feel humiliated by a government who is telling them, ‘we’ve got our eye on you’.”

Muriam Haleh Davis, a PhD candidate at New York University whose research focuses on race, decolonisation, and development in Algeria, said French Muslims are persistently asked to denounce certain acts, or prove their loyalty to French democracy, in ways that members of other faiths are not.

“Today individuals whose parents or grandparents were born in Muslim countries are full citizens. But they are still treated as if their religion was the most important factor to explain their behaviour – regardless of their degree of religious practice or attachment,” the Lyon-based researcher wrote in an email.

While the reforms targeting Muslim chaplains are stirring prickly debates, they are unlikely to meet with full-scale protest. Hundreds of imams might soon be heading back to school. Nevertheless, the French government should be extremely vigilant in its latest move to make Islam politically acceptable.

Davis warns: “Attempts to use the discourse of laicité to maintain that the Muslim population is somehow not sufficiently ‘French’ can only be resented by a population that has been in France for generations and yet are still often seen as foreigners or ‘immigrés’.”

http://www.france24.com/en/20150227-...g-imams-islam/

An important thing to note is that it's not mandatory (Unless they're military or prison based) nor will the classes stray into religious debate.

My question is what's your opinion regarding it?

Too little too late, should the government be more aggressive in its pursuing of secular education and views and make it mandatory for all Imams?

[Annoying]

An important thing to note is that it's not mandatory (Unless they're military or prison based) nor will the classes stray into religious debate.

Thanks for that. I bashed my head into the reddit thread trying to explain that to people.

[Deleted]

Thanks for that. I bashed my head into the reddit thread trying to explain that to people.

Ahah.

Reddit... Is Reddit I guess.

Once the hivemind attitude begins in a thread it's very hard to stop...

But just reading the article itself makes it pretty clear

[Annoying]

But just reading the article itself makes it pretty clear

That's a pretty big step for some...

[Independent voter]

I would like to go to those courses just to hear the imams argue with each other and the teacher. I'm interested in what they have to say.

The really radical ones won't go.

[Rukh]

Thanks for that. I bashed my head into the reddit thread trying to explain that to people.

Man. I can't even imagine trying to debate political things on reddit. Videogames are bad enough. Comment rating systems are stupid and enforce groupthink.

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I would like to go to those courses just to hear the imams argue with each other and the teacher. I'm interested in what they have to say.

The really radical ones won't go.

They better study hard so they don't bomb the course?

[Howard Moon]

The really radical ones won't go.

Why would any of them go, really, unless they are forced to?

[Revi]

I like it in theory, but the ones volunteering to take it will obviously be the ones who are not extremists to begin with, and if they force anyone who doesn't share those values it'll probably have the opposite effect of being perceived as forced western propaganda.

[Kuntantee]

They better study hard so they don't bomb the course?

This kind of attitude is one of the main reasons why immigrants are not well integrated in Europe. Constant "looking down", gross-generalizations and what not. Extremism, especially Muslim extremism, is on rise in Europe and that did not happen for no reason. Europeans did not want Muslim neighbors back in the days, now they are trying to open a conservative community that is intentionally isolated / alienated. Good luck education them.

[Deleted]

Making it a job requirement, rather than a volunteer role, for the prison counselors is a good first start.

However, it is too little to late for France.

Islam is one of the most proselytizing and exclusive of faiths and at the core of its entire value system is the defense of its beliefs at any cost. This is written throughout its scriptures, traditions and its leaders for over a thousand years. It does not matter whether some moderate Muslims in the West debate whether that core value is appropriate in this day and age when to the majority of its 1.6 billion adherents it is, at least in principle, sacrosanct. This enables a minority to either turn that principle into something far more "practical" or persuade others to do, or at least support, even further ...

France then allows the immigration of Muslims the world over to it for decades, accumulating over 6% of the population, all while having no clear civic, educational and social integration policies. It allows the widespread growth of heavily religious educational institutions, especially of the youngest, with no mandate on the core values of the state or co-existence taught in them.

France's essentially laissez-faire laws and conventions, especially on religion vs. state, that are held in such extreme regard within France alone, have made it complacent and contributed to a divisive environment where the State and ordinary people feel they can question nothing about this crumbling aspect of their society. This is even when in multiple polls and surveys, to questions fundamentally opposed to Western values, the proportion of French Muslims replying in agreement is inline with those of majority Muslim countries (much higher than in even other EU countries).

On top of a class-based disregard for improving the social and economic mobility of both France's young people and its minorities (good luck if you are young AND a minority), it has enabled a vacuum of values for second and third generation Muslims, already struggling to find an identity for themselves as the children of migrants. Unsurprisingly, this is then often filled by the more extreme views in their community. Ironically, this can start as a way to rebel against their parent generation and thereby form sub-communities.

So, France has a major problem on its hands, which it is being extremely slow and reluctant to address. The only way it can fix it, is to totally and utterly examine from the ground up what is needed to integrate their people, as early as possible in life. This also includes carefully assessing other issues related to migrant housing, especially "ghettoization", education and employment.

[Revi]

This kind of attitude is one of the main reasons why immigrants are not well integrated in Europe. Constant "looking down", gross-generalizations and what not. Extremism, especially Muslim extremism, is on rise in Europe and that did not happen for no reason. Europeans did not want Muslim neighbors back in the days, now they are trying to open a conservative community that is intentionally isolated / alienated. Good luck education them.

I don't know where you're from, but that's an incredibly flawed view of the situation in most countries I'm familiar with in Europe. There are many very well integrated immigrants and many who have either adopted the host culture or preserve their own in harmony with their new home. I can't speak for the whole of Europe, but the situation here is that the immigrants who are poorly integrated are so because they either choose to be or because of their circumstances, being brought up in a family who isn't interested in integrating or an isolated environment (immigrant "ghetto" for example).
Sure, some encounter prejudice, especially those who choose to present themselves as poorly integrated (religion attire, poor grasp of the language, conflicting values), but not enough to significantly hold them back.

Statistically, it does undoubtedly contribute somewhat to the differences in education, crime rates, isolation etc. but their situation still in no way explain radicalization, it's simply nowhere near severe enough. Immigrants in the well-off parts of Europe have it great.

[Kuntantee]

I don't know where you're from, but that's an incredibly flawed view of the situation in most countries I'm familiar with in Europe. There are many very well integrated immigrants and many who have either adopted the host culture or preserve their own in harmony with their new home. I can't speak for the whole of Europe, but the situation here is that the immigrants who are poorly integrated are so because they either choose to be or because of their circumstances, being brought up in a family who isn't interested in integrating or an isolated environment (immigrant "ghetto" for example).
Sure, some encounter prejudice, especially those who choose to present themselves as poorly integrated (religion attire, poor grasp of the language, conflicting values), but not enough to significantly hold them back.

Statistically, it does undoubtedly contribute somewhat to the differences in education, crime rates, isolation etc. but their situation still in no way explain radicalization, it's simply nowhere near severe enough. Immigrants in the well-off parts of Europe have it great.

The problems today stems from decisions made decades ago. European integration policies basically failed and this is what we are seeing today. Saying that extremism happens and European policies are not to blame is absurd.

With bold part, are you implying that they are radical because they are Muslim? Because I can't think of any "generalized" reason to be extremist if it's not education / isolation etc.

[Dugna]

The problems today stems from decisions made decades ago. European integration policies basically failed and this is what we are seeing today. Saying that extremism happens and European policies are not to blame is absurd.

But EU can do no wrong, except be the cause of both world wars, enslave most of the planet, murder millions for the sake of a religion and cause the biggest worldpower to be born which the rest of the world hates. But they do have have healthcare and other things that're causing severe debt to the point of the countries collapsing. EU just seems to love to screw itself over. I think sometimes the Left should control some things but the right should control others like immigration they wouldn't have been so fricking lax.

[Deleted]

Nice try Dugna, your bias is showing.

@Revi, I think Kuan was from Turkey unless I'm mistaken. And what he likes to ignore is that first certain groups of immigrants (no not all) came and acted in certain ways, then the stereotypes arose from that which are now being blamed for them behaving as they have all along.

[Revi]

The problems today stems from decisions made decades ago. European integration policies basically failed and this is what we are seeing today. Saying that extremism happens and European policies are not to blame is absurd.

With bold part, are you implying that they are radical because they are Muslim? Because I can't think of any "generalized" reason to be extremist if it's not education / isolation etc.

Policies are to blame, yes, but that doesn't mean what he's suggesting that negative attitudes towards immigrants are the cause of the rising extremism. If anything, the policies have been too lax.

I'm saying extremism rising isn't the result of poor treatment of immigrants.

[Vyxn]

http://www.france24.com/en/20150227-...g-imams-islam/

An important thing to note is that it's not mandatory (Unless they're military or prison based) nor will the classes stray into religious debate.

My question is what's your opinion regarding it?

Too little too late, should the government be more aggressive in its pursuing of secular education and views and make it mandatory for all Imams?

don't they have hate speech laws in France if these Imams are teaching hate against Jews, Christians, and or the West then they need to be monitored and charged with a crime if they are. they need to go into the Muslim masques and schools and find out where this hate is coming from
Hate isn't inherited its not in or genes it is taught these radical terrorist Muslims are taught by someone to hate and those that are doing the teaching need to be removed. I hoping the moderate law abiding peaceful muslims woud take it upon them selves to do so.

[Theinquisition]

Personally I think a class like this should be required to immigrate to any country.

[Vyxn]

Policies are to blame, yes, but that doesn't mean what he's suggesting that negative attitudes towards immigrants are the cause of the rising extremism. If anything, the policies have been too lax.

I'm saying extremism rising isn't the result of poor treatment of immigrants.

to many Muslim youths is being taught to hate the Jews, Christians, and the west from birth until we stop that propaganda we will never stop Muslim extremist terrorist

[PACOX]

This will work just like all multicultural and race/ethnicity classes in the States help our problems, and those are mandatory.

[Wells]

don't they have hate speech laws in France if these Imams are teaching hate against Jews, Christians, and or the West then they need to be monitored and charged with a crime if they are.

You support hate speech laws?