Undecided, pug groups = terrible or raids are just that much harder?

[Anamorph]

Why oh why are they so bad? I usually always kept 3-4 toons raid ready though pug groups but they are just so bad now a days. Is it that the player base just sucks that much or are raids just that much harder?

[rulee]

BRF is more about mechanics. Pugs are not good with mechanics. Can't follow simple directions.

The BRF is a simple casual killer due to having to actual mechanics and people still just try to zerg it.

[Xenryusho]

Do you have any examples of how they're bad? Are they just doing low damage or is it something else?

[rulee]

Do you have any examples of how they're bad? Are they just doing low damage or is it something else?

It's all about mechanics. People have been doing pretty good DPS in pugs, but once it comes time for them to not get hit by fire, all hell breaks loose.

[Xenryusho]

It's all about mechanics. People have been doing pretty good DPS in pugs, but once it comes time for them to not get hit by fire, all hell breaks loose.

Yea I can see how that's an issue in brd. There are a lot of 'don't stand here' mechanics that were relatively easy to circumvent by just getting them to move on a marked player in highmaul.

[Nasukkin]

BRF is more about mechanics. Pugs are not good with mechanics. Can't follow simple directions.

The BRF is a simple casual killer due to having to actual mechanics and people still just try to zerg it.

Pretty much this. Maybe you'll be able to get away with killing Gruul (fairly tank-and-spank; most responsibility is on tanks), Twin Arnolds (pure retard-check), or even Oreo Goreger (follow-the-rollypolly strat should suffice for a pug)... but beyond that, people have to actually use their brains. And that's where PUGs will always fail.

Just killed Heroic Blackhand this week. Came down to a matter of booting the guildies who simply couldn't do the mechanics ("Oops; I just nuked the healer with my MFD for the third time tonight because I couldn't move behind a tank!"). Mechanics = everything, this tier. A lot of the fights' mechanics are brutally unforgiving even on Normal, and the DPS checks are still very high (perhaps a bit overtuned).

[Anamorph]

Do you have any examples of how they're bad? Are they just doing low damage or is it something else?

Just a general observation, I think it's more of an attitude of "meh it's LFR someone will carry me" or they simply cannot handle mechanics.

Before WoD's release I loved the fact of requiring the proving grounds but IMO it was way too easy, They should ramp up the difficulty or instead of "trash waves" there were mini boss waves with positional requirements and such... Just my 2 cents

[Khorm]

Their biggest problem is that they don't even acknowledge that what they did was wrong so they never learn, that's why you get ragers when they're kicked.

[rulee]

Their biggest problem is that they don't even acknowledge that what they did was wrong so they never learn, that's why you get ragers when they're kicked.

I completely agree! It's frustrating when people do the SAME THING over and over again. But it's not their fault!

[Volibear]

I'd say a combination of both. BRF is pretty tightly tuned, and has some interesting mechanics to deal with.
PuGs tend to have toxic members AND the inability to execute mechanics well.

[cFortyfive]

Brf is definitely not tuned to be easy mode and people aren't exactly getting better.

[Epika]

I find the problem with PUGS is people give up too easily. Even if you have a nice attempt half the group leaves every wipe. Then you are stuck standing around, waiting for more people. Then when you finally find almost enough people, 1 or 2 more people leave and you stand around some more. Then once you fill the group there is a wipe, half the people leave and the process starts over again.

There's never any progression because you are pretty much starting over with new people every attempt. I've tried about a dozen normal mode PUGS and this has happened in most of them. I don't bother with it anymore.

[Khorm]

I find the problem with PUGS is people give up too easily. Even if you have a nice attempt half the group leaves every wipe. Then you are stuck standing around, waiting for more people. Then when you finally find almost enough people, 1 or 2 more people leave and you stand around some more. Then once you fill the group there is a wipe, half the people leave and the process starts over again.

There's never any progression because you are pretty much starting over with new people every attempt. I've tried about a dozen normal mode PUGS and this has happened in most of them. I don't bother with it anymore.

Good players can see flaws in the raid that can't be fixed without wholesale changes.

[Nitros14]

Why do you think most of the people pugging are pugging instead of doing guild groups? In many cases it's because they don't work well with others and have a toxic attitude.

[bicycle]

Why do you think most of the people pugging are pugging instead of doing guild groups? In many cases it's because they don't work well with others and have a toxic attitude.

Or they're alts, or they're pugging content their guild isn't doing anymore like Highmaul or pugging bosses their guild hasn't killed yet. I've got a main I raid heroic with my guild on, and 2 alts that are geared enough to pug a heroic highmaul or normal BRF unless the group's ilvl requirements are stupid. I tend to assume that most people pugging are in a similar spot, where pug raiding isn't their only form of progression.

[Xequecal]

BRF is really bad from a mechanics standpoint as mechanics failures don't just kill you, they kill three other people along with you. Slag bombs, p3 MfD, etc. Even worse is there are a number of mechanics where almost succeeding gives a worse result than failing entirely. All the damage split abilities fall into this category.

[Tripax]

Highmaul was so easy with pugs, Imp being the only exception.

BRF in the other hand.... ... it's so terrible that words can't describe the frustration, so often I find myself thinking "why the hell am I even pugging again?". People who can't focus for 8 minutes should stay in LFR.

I've noticed that either the boss gets 1shot (2shot max) or the raid disbands after countless bad tries. Every. Single. Time.

Yesterday did heroic kromog with a pug. First try we got him to 5%. Then one healer paladin left and we replaced him, after that there wasn't a single try below 60%.

[Life-Binder]

get a guild or go LFR


or become a hypercompetent pug RL who makes his own succesful group

[Nitros14]

Or they're alts, or they're pugging content their guild isn't doing anymore like Highmaul or pugging bosses their guild hasn't killed yet. I've got a main I raid heroic with my guild on, and 2 alts that are geared enough to pug a heroic highmaul or normal BRF unless the group's ilvl requirements are stupid. I tend to assume that most people pugging are in a similar spot, where pug raiding isn't their only form of progression.

The original poster's experience seems to suggest that many of them are what I described.

[willemh]

There are plenty of amazing pugs out there in the group finder. Pugged blackhand heroic this week in 5 attempts on my alt for example. There are many great players playing their alts, or even mains because they cant commit to a guild in the pug finder. You notice a competent raid leader within 5 minutes of joining a pug anyway, is he checking armory to ensure he's inviting competent players, is he actively talking, assigning stuff, calling people out etc. In that case you'll have a good time in most cases.