Fury Better for AOE now?

[mkh02]

Hey guys

I was wondering what you thought about the simcraft logs showing that fury pulls ahead of arms on 4 target sustained AOE now?

Simulationcraft org

Is this based on continual AOE and therefore not taking the Arms execute phase into consideration?

For me I only pick arms to be competitive on AOE fights, I much prefer fury and if this was the case it would be wonderful lol! I have already found fury smashes Arms out of the water on fights such as Thogar and Beastlord where I can AOE the adds down in quick burts but with prolonged AOE such as Iron Maidens, Hans and Franz, and especially Furnace where there are lots of execute phases , Arms performs much higher for me.

Any thoughts on these simulations?

Thank you

[Zenlogic]

Hey guys

I was wondering what you thought about the simcraft logs showing that fury pulls ahead of arms on 4 target sustained AOE now?

Simulationcraft org

Is this based on continual AOE and therefore not taking the Arms execute phase into consideration?

For me I only pick arms to be competitive on AOE fights, I much prefer fury and if this was the case it would be wonderful lol! I have already found fury smashes Arms out of the water on fights such as Thogar and Beastlord where I can AOE the adds down in quick burts but with prolonged AOE such as Iron Maidens, Hans and Franz, and especially Furnace where there are lots of execute phases , Arms performs much higher for me.

Any thoughts on these simulations?

Thank you

Arm's is better on H&F and Maidens, I have not pulled blast furnace but I can see ARMS being shit for primal elementalists.

[Deleted]

I think this simulation has a pretty badly chosen number for a comparison between fury and arms.

3 Targets as well as 5 Targets would have been a better Option in my opinion.

Fury does really well on 3 Targets since it can Meat-cleave there very efficiently. Arms on the other hand pulls ahead on 2 Targets due to the free unconditional Cleave from sweeping strikes.

Now what can you take from these sims, that is the real question, and in my opinion those say nothing. Especially considering that some genius decided that the blackhand weapon would be the one an arms warrior would take for a 4+ Targets cleave fight... Same goes for the Cloak. Whoever chose the Itemsets for Arms does not know how to properly gear arms for AoE fights.

For fury there are some mistakes as well but i do not want to go into that further since it just annoys me how badly done the item-picks in general are.

What was already know before and is not anyhow affected by those results is:
Fury does better than Arms on sustained as well as burst Aoe Fights with atleast 3 Targets. (bladestorm deals almost double the dmg for fury)
Fury will get even further ahead in that category due to Arms >2 targets aoe not scaling with mastery.(WW, Tc and bladestorm/ravager)
On maidens this would mean that your Dps until the execute phase would be as high if not higher as your Arms dps, but the really important phase is the execute phase, so you will still want to play arms there.
Furnance in my Opinion is better to be played as Arms since once again, you will be able to provide dmg when it is needed.
H&F is a 2 target fight which gets harder the longer the fight goes on, so you play arms once again.

Like you said, for fights like Beastlord or Thogar you want to play Fury in order to take advantage of your high burst aoe dmg.
Remember, the more gear and especially mastery you get, the further Fury pulls ahead on >2 Targets cleave.

All in all: bad sim with nothing new to learn due to badly chosen parameters.

[mkh02]

Hey mate!

Yeah I agree that arms is better for H&F and Maidens at least thats what i thought. Just curious as to why the sims are showing Fury coming out top on AOE now.

Arms is superb for Blast Furnace. The key is to get all adds down as quickly as possible...hitting them with collossus smash and a few mortal strikes brings them to execute range fairly quickly if you raid is performing well then the executes is where arms does shine. They burn down so fast at that point its great for the raid and for personal DPS.

We are still just having problems with add management near the end of phase 2 and placement of the shields but I am sitting at beween 50 and 60K Dps by that point on the meters.

[Deleted]

Fury pulls ahead because from 3 targets on their cleave is actually really strong, this as well as the poor gear optimization from the build made fury pull ahead of arms in this simulation.

With a better optimized gearset Arms would be as good as fury in this sim.

[mkh02]

Hey mate! Thank you for the really detailed response!

So effectively you are saying that as gear improves, when there is an aoe centered fight with groups of adds greater than 3 we want to be playing Fury as this will do better?

Where there is a fight with consistant cleave on 2 mobs like H & F or Twin Ogron then we want to pick arms?

Where there are adds 2-3 but good opertuinity fro execute phases such as Furnace then Arms will be better?

Thanks for your time mate!

[Deleted]

Well pretty much exactly what you said.

If you can SS some Executes Arms gets really strong.
2Mobs will always be Arms since your Main-spells do scale with mastery and "hit" both targets. You just need to try and see the point from which on you no longer play with Bladestorm on 2 Targets and go with Bloodbath.

Starting from Three targets on Fury gets really strong with more gear(and especially mastery). Especially if you are going to use bladestorm, which scales far better with fury than with arms, as you can see from the "dmg per execute" in the sim.

Furnance is kind of a special case but i think Arms is the way to go for that boss.

[Roiids]

Enjoying the thread.... curious as well... but anyone else notice if you dont get high crits on execute phases as arms your dps isnt nearly as good? Will the changes to execute change this as well?

[sjsctt]

Now what can you take from these sims, that is the real question, and in my opinion those say nothing. Especially considering that some genius decided that the blackhand weapon would be the one an arms warrior would take for a 4+ Targets cleave fight... Same goes for the Cloak. Whoever chose the Itemsets for Arms does not know how to properly gear arms for AoE fights.

For fury there are some mistakes as well but i do not want to go into that further since it just annoys me how badly done the item-picks in general are.
.

The curatator of SIM-C (Collision) has stated multiple times that he puts good gear on the profiles, but never builds a BiS list. This is because during progression, you normally don't have BiS gear. You should (normally) take the higher iLevel pieces, unless the stats simply cannot stack up. The breakpoint seems to be roughly 7 iLevels before the sheer iLevel of a bad piece of gear will make it better than properly itemized pieces. In other words, he puts these sims together around profiles that should mimic characters 'in-the-wild'.

Collision also encourages everyone to import their own characters, and sim themselves. In other words, the sims are set up for success, they just need a little effort from the user.

But, if you want to start putting together BiS lists, go nuts! It is just generally a big waste of time that makes people pass on would-be upgrades.

[Warriorsarri]

Also, the profile uses the same gear, no matter the amount of targets. The gear is optimized for Single target rather than multi target.

[Jaybee9084]

Thogar and Beastlord, Fury with Bladestorm wins. This is because the mobs dont live long enough for your consistent WW and Sweeping Strikes damage to build up.

Iron Maidens, Arms wins. This is because of the consistent 2 or more hits with WW, Sweeping Strikes, and Rend. And, of course, the execute phase with sweeping strikes is whats gonna win it for you.

Hans and Franz is kind of a toss up. If you know your group well, and you are positive you are gonna be able to get your big money executes off with both targets near each other, then arms will win easily. However, if you are unable to line up your 3 or 4 big executes (pot, scabbard, reck, ring, trink proc) on both targets, then Fury would have been better.

Furnace is kind of a toss up as well. For phase 1, Arms easily wins because of consistent 3+ target Whirlwinds, Sweeping STrikes, Rend, and consistent usage of two-target executes with SS. However, Arms also becomes near useless for elementalists. So, in this case, it all depends on what your group needs. If your group has this on farm status? Fuck it, go arms and pad DPS with execute, SS, and rend.

As kind of a summary, any fight where you get an extended execute phase with 2 targets near each other Arms is going to win by miles. This can also apply to fights like furnace, where you will get frequent access to two target executes because the mobs dont die quickly. Any fight with burst AoE where Bladestorm is gonna carry you, Fury wins, since their bladestorm hits harder.

[Deleted]

The curatator of SIM-C (Collision) has stated multiple times that he puts good gear on the profiles, but never builds a BiS list. This is because during progression, you normally don't have BiS gear.
Collision also encourages everyone to import their own characters, and sim themselves. In other words, the sims are set up for success, they just need a little effort from the user.

I did not want to shittalk his work or anything, quite the opposite im happy he is doing it, BUT you still need to interpret the results and see them with a grain of salt.
You can not go around after reading his results and go "OMG FURY BEATS ARMS ON AOE, ARMS IS NOW USELESS". You rather have to go look at the result and find out how those came to be. Im obviously exagerating here but I hope I got my point across nonetheless.

Especially when comparing between two specs with one of them having strongly changing Stat priorities depending on the number of enemy targets.

If someone can explain me quickly what I need to do in order to sim this myself, I will gladly do it, using only Heroic BRF items which I have myself or which are used in the profile.

I think this should give better aproximations of what were actual numbers. I dont know how it is for you, but I myself do swap items out when I play Arms on an multitarget Aoe-encounter in order to maximise my dmg output.

[Archimtiros]

I did not want to shittalk his work or anything, quite the opposite im happy he is doing it, BUT you still need to interpret the results and see them with a grain of salt.
You can not go around after reading his results and go "OMG FURY BEATS ARMS ON AOE, ARMS IS NOW USELESS". You rather have to go look at the result and find out how those came to be. Im obviously exagerating here but I hope I got my point across nonetheless.

Especially when comparing between two specs with one of them having strongly changing Stat priorities depending on the number of enemy targets.

If someone can explain me quickly what I need to do in order to sim this myself, I will gladly do it, using only Heroic BRF items which I have myself or which are used in the profile.

I think this should give better aproximations of what were actual numbers. I dont know how it is for you, but I myself do swap items out when I play Arms on an multitarget Aoe-encounter in order to maximise my dmg output.

Go into the simulate tab and change your gear. If your changing the whole thing though, its probably easier to simply set up a gear profile with AMR and then import it.

If you want absolutely accurate results for a specific situation, you also want to change the options (fight length, movement, targets, uptime, execute phase) accordingly.

See thats the thing about Simcraft. Its a great and powerful tool but you need to use it properly. Unfortunately it is wildly impractical to try to sim every last situation for every class to get absolute maximum results. That is why we simulate everything in a small vacuum with standardized variables. Sure gear lists could be optimized, but the amount of gain isn't that high (for most players), and the die hard ones (cough,WarriorSarri) are going to do it themselves anyways.
Unfortunately at that point it becomes an arms race. If one profile is absolutely optimized, it looks better in comparison to others, so they need to be absolutely optimized and so on and so forth.

TLDR: Base profiles are there to give a standardized overview. If you want more accurate results you need to do it yourself and you need to do it fairly, for every class/spec and encounter. Trying to simulate Arms "accurately" by optimizing its gear perfectly and then simply setting number of targets to 2 isn't realistic, because no fight does that.

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Also, thing is that Fury does beat Arms on AoE. It always has, at least as far as burst AoE is concerned. Arms shines when it can do sustained cleave, which is something totally different. That said, the gap between the two specs has closed considerably, and there is a hefty amount of RNG in both specs. In practice, it is certainly possible for Fury to beat Arms on encounters it "shouldn't" such as Iron Maidens or Blast Furnace.

To reiterate: Cleave =! AoE!

[Dark1829]

The thing that ppl are getting confuse imo is the difference between AOE and cleave.
Arms mastery affect more or less single target abilities, this means that on cleave 2-3 targets arms is viable and less clunky. THe way SS works is that it transfer 50% of the dmg dont to the primary target onto the closes mob. Mastery does not affect any of the talents.

Fury in the other hand offer a mastery that increases the dmg done by all warriors abilities, this means that it affects talents as well. So as gear progresses your aoe will become much better. Fury works well on 3+ targets after i reached 685 with most pieces from brf i find myself doing fury for just about every encounter except maiden and as far as h&f goes you have cleave yet its not 100% of the time so dont know if arms is worth if i take the spec favoritism to fury.


Hope it helps