Will Ret ever be "fixed"?

[Deleted]

Right now I'm playing retripala at a relatively high-end level (7/10 mythic), but I can not stop ripping my hair off from the pure randomness of my damage output. Basically all my damage is dependent on proccs! If I don't get any proccs my damage will be complete shite, no matter if at one time divine purpose (I have 4set) decides to procc 10 times in a row. I can only do above average DPS (bar the tries when DP decides to actually work) when I have my Avenging Wrath up.

It's all too random. I simulate at 40.3k DPS, but it fluctuates between 30k and 45k at all times.

Let's recap: Divine Purpose! 2set! Excorcism! Divine storm proccs! 2x procc trinkets! All proccs!

How are we supposed to compete at a normal level with these mechanics? Why are we forced to live the life of the ultimate roulette ball?

Do you think that this will ever be remedied, or is our class designer a degenerate gambler?

[BurningSkies2018]

I don't know... I have been kind of enjoying my paladin... I wouldn't complain if they adjusted the cooldown on our generators so if we have a dry spell with procs we don't twiddle our thumbs for a second or two, but... yeah.

I'm enjoying it, a little RNG dependent at times, but perhaps it's just not the class for you if you aren't enjoying the playstyle?

[Svarbald]

I have always played Ret.

We are still saddled with some of the bullsh*t random Procs that the Devs thought would be a good idea in Cataclysm. Yes, now in WoD, most the really bad proc based stuff is gone, but proc based Exorcisms and Divine Storm still suck. I have had plenty of times where Exorcism would not proc for like 2 mins

And we do need higher sustained DPs, even if the DoT from Seal of Truth got a good buff that would be fine.

HoW got stealth nerfed in 6.1, it lost about 10K, and Ret is not scaling well, so were getting pushed further and further behind in DPS as ilevels go up.

We need: un-nerfed HoW, better sustained DPS, fix our scaling, and lose the procs.

[PapaNasty]

I dunno, I think procs are fun

Although they're also annoying/frustrating aswell.

E.g. While working on M Flamebender, during our wipes the other Rey pally and I were ranging from 35k - 50k, sometimes with one high and the other low, simply because we got our procs at the right/wrong times it generally averages out over time, but in fights like that, where you have a cleave burn phase, it's just frustrating

Although at least with 4pc & Divine Purpose we have sustained dps, unlike SW/HA where we only had amazing burst then just chilled out for 1 1/2 mins lol

[Filfa]

While RNG can be amazing, it can also be horrible.
Fluctuating from attempt to attempt is beyond frustrating (Also 7/10M)

The kind of frustration which makes me want to re roll at the end of the tier...

To your question, I don't see ret being re designed in the foreseeable future, we've pretty much always been a RNG class.

[Spraxle]

I understand your sentiments. I'm in LFR/Garrison epics and do not run meters (I'm a bad lol), but those times when your Judgement and Crusader Strike are on CD and you're sitting there waiting... It's just as bad though when you feel like you can't hit everything fast enough.

[Omaski]

since it seems that they made ret into the support class in a game that doesnt rly have a niche for a support class blizz has relegated ret to an RNG class so they may need to make some of our proc guaranteed to occur if they havent yet, like the changes they made to fire mages where they get increased crit % when they dont crit seeing as their damage potential is all based off crit, "pyro techniques" or whatever its called.

[Deleted]

They will never fix ret... they dont like ret and want to keep it marginal. Its always been like that. Ret gets all the bad design not good enough for other classes and is totally horrible to play and relies on set bonuses to put any "spice" in it, and that is just atrocious design. Also brainless gameplay without any interaction between abilities, and every ability is just different amount of dmg on different cd...

Complains about ret were since open beta in vanilla and they remain shit dps, shit gameplay, shit design

[Astoniass]

I love how current ret is playing. I use every GCD and on some fights I can do very competitive damage. The proc-happy playstyle with 4pc and DP is a great skill cap in my opinion as well, back in MoP the only real difference in rets' damage came from proper CD usage and was frankly a bit boring for me by Siege.

[RagnorZ]

Yeah I don't like the 6.1 w/ 4p rotation at all, our cleave and aoe is too dependant on RNG.

In 5.4 when DS and HoTR hit hard enough baseline to use at 2 targets it was actually much better, you had reliable damage no procs needed.

[Fargus]

I love how current ret is playing. I use every GCD and on some fights I can do very competitive damage. The proc-happy playstyle with 4pc and DP is a great skill cap in my opinion as well, back in MoP the only real difference in rets' damage came from proper CD usage and was frankly a bit boring for me by Siege.

How on earth is it a great skill cap?

Say there are two rets in a raid, one ret get proc after proc after proc, with large uptime on DP. The other ret is getting hardly anything, with a small uptime on DP. Both of them follow their rotations and cd usage flawlessly. It's not a measure of skill, it's a measure of luck.

[drtrann]

personally I love the way ret feels playing, but I do feel like we've been screwed on multiple levels that combined make us "Meh" at best.

1. our DPS to begin with is lower than average.
2. we do not scale as well as other classes.
3. our tier set doesn't drop nearly as much as the other's, and warlocks will usually be given the tier before us. (we still dont have a single paladin with 4 piece tier in our raid because of the 2 warlocks).
4. trinkets don't seem to drop ever (most likely bad RNG but both me and the other ret paladin are still rolling scabard/Htectus (I now use skull of war instead of H tectus)
5. we don't bring anything unique to the raid. for every situation there is another class that does it miles better with less hassle. (other ret pally rerolled boomkin for mythic last week, and I'm thinking of joining him).
6. holy paladin's are much much MUCH more valuable for the raid. I've been asked by my guild to reroll holy while we do progression (previously I was averaging top90th percentile for my gear).
7. melee

I really love my paladin from a gameplay perspective, but I think blizzard either needs to take away our utility and massively buff our damage, or give us something that nobody else can do. also figure out whatever the fuck is going on with our tier because we have 5 hunters in the raid, and they all have heroic 4 piece, and we cant scrounge together a normal+heroic 4 piece on our tier.

[Viking]

The RNG is pissing me off too. Seems like we're dropping a fair bit as other classes get geared as well. I was 1-3 on dps throughout HM and now I find myself sliding quite a bit in BRF. Particularly AoE fights.

Been debating trying something new next tier, since empowered seals may likely be the go to talent if what I've read is true about how the talent is scaling. Despise the gameplay of it. No idea what I'd switch to though. Been ret a long time.

[Rennegadelawlz]

Are you running final verdict too?

And also this is the first thread about ret dps sliding

I highly doubt HoW got stealthed nerfed blizz has nothing to hide and it's not in the patch notes.

With that said my opinion is divine crusader should apply a choice since DS does ok damage using divine storm without FV buff is last on our priority list so if FV buff isn't up they should make Divine Crusader make your next TV/FV 100% crit chance.

[drtrann]

Are you running final verdict too?

And also this is the first thread about ret dps sliding

I highly doubt HoW got stealthed nerfed blizz has nothing to hide and it's not in the patch notes.

With that said my opinion is divine crusader should apply a choice since DS does ok damage using divine storm without FV buff is last on our priority list so if FV buff isn't up they should make Divine Crusader make your next TV/FV 100% crit chance.

check your pre/post 6.1 logs. it got nerfed.

[Fargus]

Who is making the decisions regarding class balance?

Why isn't ret scaling like some of the other melee classes?

Why does ret have to be mediocre?

[Chivolence]

Who is making the decisions regarding class balance?

Why isn't ret scaling like some of the other melee classes?

Why does ret have to be mediocre?

A potato

10char

[PapaNasty]

personally I love the way ret feels playing, but I do feel like we've been screwed on multiple levels that combined make us "Meh" at best.

1. our DPS to begin with is lower than average.
2. we do not scale as well as other classes.
3. our tier set doesn't drop nearly as much as the other's, and warlocks will usually be given the tier before us. (we still dont have a single paladin with 4 piece tier in our raid because of the 2 warlocks).
4. trinkets don't seem to drop ever (most likely bad RNG but both me and the other ret paladin are still rolling scabard/Htectus (I now use skull of war instead of H tectus)
5. we don't bring anything unique to the raid. for every situation there is another class that does it miles better with less hassle. (other ret pally rerolled boomkin for mythic last week, and I'm thinking of joining him).
6. holy paladin's are much much MUCH more valuable for the raid. I've been asked by my guild to reroll holy while we do progression (previously I was averaging top90th percentile for my gear).
7. melee

I really love my paladin from a gameplay perspective, but I think blizzard either needs to take away our utility and massively buff our damage, or give us something that nobody else can do. also figure out whatever the fuck is going on with our tier because we have 5 hunters in the raid, and they all have heroic 4 piece, and we cant scrounge together a normal+heroic 4 piece on our tier.

Sounds like your guild has simply had bad RNG for tier pieces, for myself, I had 4pc during the first week of BRF, 4pc 680 by Thursday of the 2nd week of BRF (2x pieces from bonus rolls, 2 from guild). We had a lot of Conq/Prot drop, but very little Vanq. We didn't have any warlocks, but the class wouldn't have mattered in regards to who received it (Except with tanks) and who didn't (Unless downgrading 5 ilvls to get 2pc/4pc wasn't an upgrade for the class lol). I share your pain in regards to trinkets, we had our first horn drop last week (admittedly M WF, although I missed out on it), and we've only had 1x heroic vial drop (which I also missed out on).

Also I'm consistently high on meters in guild, less so on single target fights, and I'm not faring quite as well on mutiple target fights like Kromog & Beastlord since they nerfed the range of FV, but still pretty high. In general the RNG evens out over the course of a fight, but it's mainly on fights with "burn phases" or "multi target phases" where the RNG is a pain. The example I gave in another post of our Ret Paladin's dps ranging from 35k-50k on M Flamebender attempts, is simply because if procs occur while the 4x wolves are up, we're going to significantly increase our dps (And the wolf phases are relatively short & only happen 2-3 times, so a good set of procs skews dps significantly). For example, I missed my guild's heroic runs this week and have been pugging Maidens (lotsss of fail, lotsss of wipes lol), and if I'm not on the boat, I consistently pull 40k-43k dps before we wipe, as over time the RNG isn't as much of a factor.

The utility which a Paladin brings to the raid is pretty awesome, as hand of sacrifice is pretty much amazing on most fights, and BoPs are likewise rather "handy" in some situations (e.g. Kro'mog if someone misses a hand, Maidens for Penetrating shot etc). These same benefits are brought by both prot and holy (Albeit 30s less cd on Sac for Ret), so if that's what you mean by our utility being available elsewhere, then sure.

Also if a guild is short on tanks, or short on healers, then it makes sense for a dps to re-spec to one of these roles. If you're as good at playing prot/holy as you are ret, and your guild just wants that class balance for raids, then it's less of a requirement to change, but can be helpful as it's good to have a mixture of healers & some fights are better for particular tanks (Just as sometimes a Prot/Holy Paladin might be asked to swap to ret for better class balance where multiple holy/prot isn't as ideal for a fight).

[ujx]

It's pretty disheartening to play ret atm. In order to even compete, you have to have good procs. When big AoE happens (kromog hands, beastlord adds, thogar adds, etc) you have to pray to Jesus and hope for procs or else you're at the bottom of the meter. Meanwhile, hunters press barrage, warlocks press chaos wave, warriors press bladestorm, rogues press blade flury, moonkins lol, etc (you get the picture). I hate that almost all other classes have on-demand AoE that is superior to ret 9 times out of 10. It's kind of sad having to get multiple procs and jump through hula hoops in order to be competitive, and this is just AoE.

[Dazu]

check your pre/post 6.1 logs. it got nerfed.

Check the blue response, it wasnt really nerfed, it was fixed from bugged functionality (double procing something I believe it was). While it did lose a little damage in the process, theres a difference between a nerf and a bug fix, and they are investigating it now because it shouldnt have actually lost damage in the process anyway so it seems like it might have another bug in it now also. So for a stealth nerf, been pretty well talked about.

Also someone said ret doesnt bring anyone another class cant do better? Comparing to dps, ret brings the most utility in game by a massive amount. Hand of Prot, Sac, freedom? Pretty sure no other dps class brings anything even remotely close to the power of those 3, as the person said the person switched to boomkin (which is below ret on average overall on all fights in mythic BRF), which brings the utility of a speed boost and battlerez (if no one else can do it) and which, funnily enough, is another proc dependant class (shooting stars procs).

As for class balance, its really the best ive seen in any expansion overall. The % between classes has been pretty low on average this expansion, although ive seen every class except hunters complaining their class needs buffs (which is odd in itself, usually hunters complain the most?). The last class is shadowpriest overall in the 90th percentile at 45.7k dps average overall in mythic BRF, the highest is demo lock and fire mage at 51k, but the rest are between 44-48k. Or simply put, the range on dps is roughly 4-5k average overall between the worst class and the best class (not counting all specs for classes with multiple DPS specs though because some are really badly balanced still) which is under a 10% difference.

So @ Fargus.
Why does ret have to be mediocre? Mediocre would mean you are far behind other melee dps overall, and have far less utility and support, but ret has superior utility, and is above warriors, enhance shaman and feral druid as melee dps, and only a whopping 2k behind the top melee dps - WW monk on average over all bosses.

- - - Updated - - -

It's pretty disheartening to play ret atm. In order to even compete, you have to have good procs. When big AoE happens (kromog hands, beastlord adds, thogar adds, etc) you have to pray to Jesus and hope for procs or else you're at the bottom of the meter. Meanwhile, hunters press barrage, warlocks press chaos wave, warriors press bladestorm, rogues press blade flury, moonkins lol, etc (you get the picture). I hate that almost all other classes have on-demand AoE that is superior to ret 9 times out of 10. It's kind of sad having to get multiple procs and jump through hula hoops in order to be competitive, and this is just AoE.

I play a surv hunter, all I do is hit barrage right? So thats 6 seconds of AoE, hands die in about 10-12 seconds, so if all I do is barrage, im going to get raped on the meter by the other dps. I also need to target in the best spot possible for multishots and also hope for procs to get ToTH to proc so my multishots are cheap, otherwise I lose way too much damage casting my focusing shots to maintain my AoE. Its funny, people complain about RNG procs and seem to think no other classes have the same kind of procs to watch for. While ill admit my AoE is less RNG dependant to be average, if I dont plan for the hand phase (Banking focus/CDs and ToTH procs) my AoE is also shit compared to the rest of my raid, whereas is I plan well my AoE DPS is very solid and high.

Edit : Im not saying nothings wrong with ret, but some people im guessing dont play other classes at all and really have no idea how other classes work with their comments. I think rets Divine Storm needs some tweaking, maybe 90% weapon damage, or slightly higher DP proc rate (say 10% per holy power consumed instead), or maybe something like baseline consecration returned.