Will Ret ever be "fixed"?

[Deleted]

Good arguments and facts... guess you are both troll and mentally challenged. But if you disagree for some (stupid) reason, recheck the facts and information. They back me up nicely.

What facts do you think you have presented? You have made statements, but have not submitted any evidence (let alone proof) in support of them.

[Deleted]

What facts do you think you have presented? You have made statements, but have not submitted any evidence (let alone proof) in support of them.

I have made statements based on facts widely available, whoever wants can check them can easily do so. Logs, lineups for most challenging content, sim values, difference between sim and avg players... Do i really need to provide ALL resources and facts, given that the people here are so smart, no trolls, and are so full of knowledge... they should know where to check what i said. I checked what they said, it didnt pan out as true.

If you are trying to argue opposite of what i said, then how the hell did you get to that conclusion? Got some private data not available to everyone? Because all the widely available data i checked backs me up, as you know... i checked it BEFORE i said anything(other than horrible playstyle that is obviously my opinion... and to some extent should be considered a fact due to all the proof and examples provided, but whatever, some like it).

There is a reason why paladins drop off if you go into better percentile filters(from 7th to 10th of 11 classes), why paladins sim prefectly lined up with better percentile values and placement(10th out of 11), why in lower percentiles paladin dps drops less compared to top/sim values, while other classes drop more, why even if melee is taken to some challenging fact, its other melee, not paladin. Plenty of info and facts around, just need to look for it before posting.

[Deleted]

I have made statements based on facts widely available, whoever wants can check them can easily do so. Logs, lineups for most challenging content, sim values, difference between sim and avg players... Do i really need to provide ALL resources and facts, given that the people here are so smart, no trolls, and are so full of knowledge... they should know where to check what i said. I checked what they said, it didnt pan out as true.

If you are trying to argue opposite of what i said, then how the hell did you get to that conclusion? Got some private data not available to everyone? Because all the widely available data i checked back me up.

You still haven't responded with your 'facts'. But I'll try and distill them out and then you say where you evidence is:

1) You say paladin dps is lowest of all the classes (potentially bar one). I do not see this reflected in my guild's logs nor in any logs I have looked through during my raid preparation. Where is your evidence?

2) You say we are nowhere to be found in progression mode. Well I am progressing, if you aren't.

3) You say paladin is easier to play than other dps specs. Again, where is your evidence? Your use of percentiles is spurious if true but you have not demonstrated that they come from anywhere other than your imagination. Spurious because even if they were true it does not indicate that the class is easier to play but simply that defensive abilities cover many blushes lower down the pecking order (abilities that better players will not actually need to use as a matter of course because they move from fire). Even then, your figures still don't shift the position of the paladin towards the top end either, further invalidating your claim.

[MrKnubbles]

I actually really like the proc playstyle. It's a lot of fun seeing all these buttons keep lighting up rather than sitting around waiting on cooldowns.

[Deleted]

You still haven't responded with your 'facts'. But I'll try and distill them out and then you say where you evidence is:

1) You say paladin dps is lowest of all the classes (potentially bar one). I do not see this reflected in my guild's logs nor in any logs I have looked through during my raid preparation. Where is your evidence?

2) You say we are nowhere to be found in progression mode. Well I am progressing, if you aren't.

3) You say paladin is easier to play than other dps specs. Again, where is your evidence? Your use of percentiles is spurious if true but you have not demonstrated that they come from anywhere other than your imagination. Spurious because even if they were true it does not indicate that the class is easier to play but simply that defensive abilities cover many blushes lower down the pecking order (abilities that better players will not actually need to use as a matter of course because they move from fire). Even then, your figures still don't shift the position of the paladin towards the top end either, further invalidating your claim.

1) Yes i do and i have all data that backs me up, go check the data.
2) If my guild just starts progression through BRF normal, and we have 675ilvl avg... sure, paladins will be just fine and it will be called progression. If you are on the edge of whats needed for content you are progressing through, ret paladin is somewhere around last on the desired specs for better progression. You might be there, but your guild would probably be better with some other class in your place. Thats why those that progress the fastest avoid ret like a plague. So they are still nowhere to be found in progression mode (or a mode where you go and build for progress, not just go with standard lineup in hope of killing a boss eventually, that is not "progress mode", thats just raiding and somewhat can be called progression... just not progression mode, as that suggest you go into a certain "mode" and dedicate everything towards progression... dont look at me, guy said progression mode, not progression... as every raid where you do something new is called progression, but what top guilds do can be called progression mode, where everything they do is done with best progress in mind... and it includes taking ret palies out of lineup)
3) My evidence is also on the internet, its partially subjective, but if you want it, you will find it. Im still backed up by facts and information, feel free to check them. One is a site with logs, to give you hint and other is something you are doing, so shouldnt be too hard to find and compare how it fares with actual real world data and why. I did look for them myself before posting and refuting bullshit, if you cant do the same... your choice. It does shift paladins towards the top and it does prove that avg paladin player is closer to their dps potential compared to other classes where avg players are further from the better players and sims, and fall behind paladins in the overall rankings.

If you know cs > j > exo... gg, you are going to play your paladin within 500-1000dps of your sim. If thats not easiest there is, then other classes are not for monkeys, but braindead monkeys... but luckily, data shows that isnt the case.

But anyway, this seems useless, as people are to consumed with feelings it seems, and "i did this in raid" other than cold facts. (Imagine that, im also top in my guild almost every fight as a ret paly... yet i am within 500-1000dps of my sim, even tho i dont care about half of the "best way of doing stuff", while others in guild are simming 2-3k above me, and end up under every damn time and under their sim by even 5k... so it must be that paladins are the best dps class out there, as my dps meters said so)

[Deleted]

1) Yes i do and i have all data that backs me up, go check the data.

No, you show me. There's no point in even reading the rest of what you wrote if you attitude is 'I am right but it's up to you to find my evidence for me'.

[Evolution69]

Every class player feels like they're getting the shortest end of the stick. I bet my life that you can find a mage unhappy with the class right now even though they currently rape damage meters by a mile.

Ret is FINE. There is some clunkyness in our rotation since we have four procs that interact with each other, but that doesn't mean Ret isn't viable in current content. Contraty to popular belief, Blizzard has come a long way with class balance, and this is probably the best it has ever been. The ṕroblem is that melees, in general, are not desirted in most encounters and that has been true since forever, nothing new about this.

There's no point in using world first raid comps to justify buffs, world-first competing guilds are in a class of their own and will stack the best/most appropriate specs to get early kills. For the average player/guild, if you can pull your weigth, you should get a spot if you're better than another melee in your raid.

Btw anyone that has been playing Ret for more than 1 expansion knows what it's like to be in a bad spot, and this is definitely not it. If you feel there's some mechanic that could be improved, sure, go ahead and voice your concerns. But do it in a way that doesn't sound like mindless whining.

I totally agree with this. People complaining are comparing themselves with top end raiding guild while they are raiding 2-3 days a week or not raiding at all. There a few paladins in some guild 6-7/10M which pull some good dps while casting HoS and Lay of Hands

IN any average guild, ret paladin can pull their weight easily and help tremendously with progression on any boss.

But meh, if you play your class to be the top dps on the meters, and your goal is to join one of these top guild, I guess you can complain.
Anyway, the OP main point was, ret paladin was a bit to RNG. But as some1 pointed out above, you could easily try a few other talents and have more control.

[Deleted]

No, you show me. There's no point in even reading the rest of what you wrote if you attitude is 'I am right but it's up to you to find my evidence for me'.

Right back at ya!
And to correct you on one thing... you are not to find evidence for me, i dont need it. Find it for yourself...
If i say "sun is yellow" (spare me of philosophy here, its just an example), and you ask for proof, i will just tell you to go and check it yourself... as its widely available for everyone to check themselves, im not going to take a pictures and post them here.
I have found it for myself... and thats why i put my findings here... accept it blindly, refuse it blindly, check for yourself and come to your own conclusion... all fine by me.

But then again, i guess it seems i can call you troll or mentally challenged if you dont come to same conclusion as me...

[saboya]

Rotation/Playstyle: Having 4 procs that get into the way of each other is not good design, I'll agree with that. But that doesn't mean it's a braindead spec. I can argue it's harder to get Ret 4pc priority right than to play at of other DPS specs.

Ret wasn't "avoided". The russian guild used a Ret up until Blackhand, and then they just dropped all melee besides the 3 rogues needed to soak P3 because melees are terrible on the fight, not because paladins are terrible. Rets have good on-demand DPS, good sustained DPS, good AoE and specific raid-utility (although we lack a raid-wide cooldown).

Most of of complaints just sound like "Rets should have 30 raid cooldowns and top dps meters". Also, if you're currently not progressing on Mythic Blackhand, you're not on the edge of anything.

[PapaNasty]

Just to support/contradict some of the statements which have been made:

1/ Ret is easy to play, really easy. Some of the mods available which do the thinking for you in regards to your priority list make it even easier for average players to appear much better than they actually are. Which is why often the telling difference between a good Ret and an average Ret is their use of support and dmg reduction abilities as well as their dmg taken. As dmg by itself is relatively easy e.g. Pre T17 we could 75% of our dmg, over a 2minute segment, during the first 30s while wings/Scabbard/Str pot etc were up.... The rotation for which included HoW every 2nd global cd.....not so difficult.

2/ Based on warcraftlogs.com, looking at the 90th percentile (So top10% of players in Mythic), Ret Paladins, as a class. Usually rank 9th or 10th on each BRF mythic fight (Some higher, but most are 9th/10th). However Ret is almost always mid table out of the dps specs e.g. Druids are above Ret on all except 2 fights, as Feral smashes us on single target and Balance smashes us on AoE, but on only 3 fights do both specs beat us. So in general, we're usually doing pretty well since although some players/classes can swap specs and still maintain a 90th percentile, most either stick with the same spec or perform worse in their less favours spec.

If you look at the 90th percentile of players in Heroic, Ret ranks around 6th/7th as a spec (And 5th/6th as a class) for most boss fights, with a couple back to mid table. The mythic stats are skewed a little by the sample size (top10% of mythic is a tiny sample size), but the 90th percentile of heroic data should pretty much be most good mythic raiders/guilds, so is more represetative of the population as a whole.

So both of you guys are right, depending on which statistics you wanted to use to back you up lol. That's the beauty of statistics, they are so easily manipulated to assist people's arguments lol.

In general, with the above in mind, I still think Ret is in a good place at the moment. We could be better, but we

[Laurabelle]

I don't think it's a problem with the class per se. More so, the design of the tier set. Minus the tier set, and the larger issue is that your DPS is so reliant on what happens during your wings that everything else is balanced around that.

[Deleted]

Right back at ya!

No problemo

Logs from our kills this week:

Oregorger https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
Flamebender https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
Hans https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&fight=12 (the only one where I was last and that was due to death).
Gruul https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e-done&fight=3
Darmac https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e-done&fight=7
Thogar https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&fight=16
Kromog https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

And that's just me. In the hands of quality rets, the figures are even more pronounced.

[Deleted]

@PapaNasty: Thats why you should use overall data, for whole instance, unless you have infinite amount of characters and players... and there paly is 10th class overall! Then again, why bring more of 5th/6th class to certain fight if you have endless choices, why not more of 1st? So paladin is not good enough to be stacked and subbed in on any fight, and its overall 10th so not good enough to be there for whole run.

Now... problem with heroic is that its not cutting edge, its not "sacrifice all for progress" and doesnt exactly ask for maximum efficiency, so data is kinda skewed because of it. People pad dps etc in there.
Same as enh shaman from paragon said during their hc and later mythic imperator fights, where his dps dropped compared to first kill... as on first kill everyone was doing what they are supposed to, and only most efficient aoers did aoe... while later kills and heroic, everyone was padding on adds, so their dps went up and his dps went down because adds died faster. Skews the "ranking" in favor of mediocre classes.

If you go for "progression mode" and have some classes that aoe adds down, and others focus on single target... why would you ever bring paladin in there? For ST they are bad, and for aoe they are bad... unless procs. And that opens another can of worms... what happens if the fight goes well and paladin is not getting any procs and you wipe cause you dont have enough dps? Why would you even do that to your raid where you rely on spec where depending on luck their dps can fluctuate by like 10k dps?

Unreliable, not among the best in ST, not among the best in AoE. Over the whole run 2nd worst class. Not spec... class! And bring same utility as holy/prot paladins... and those are somewhat better standing in their roles than ret is for dps.

Face it... there is no reason to bring ret paly if you can choose what to bring. And that is class design problem. Fact that there are some in there just means some dont have endless possibilities and have to settle for less sometimes, or dont care that they are getting less since its not that important for them.

Either need another dps spec and that 2 have different things they excel at so you can change depending on whats needed, so they can fill some role based on needs, like other dps do... feral/balance for example... so you know that if you are dps druid you will be very wanted for some fights at least, not mid/bottom of the pack for everything, thus no reason to bring if you can choose. Or need some unique utility/better focus on something, be it ST, cleave, aoe... or just less luck, so at least we are reliable.

[saboya]

Bottom line: If you're doing progression where class is more important than player quality, you are a top100 guild and probably have geared alts, so swap to them. If you're not a top100 guild, your class doesn't matter since you're most likely overgearing content and if you are mor skilled than other players, you should get a spot.

It's that simple.

[Matt0193]

I just wish that our RNG had some sort of protection, like each time you use TV/FV the chance of procing Divine Purpose is increased by 5% until it procs, then it drops back down to 20%. It's great when you proc 10 FV/EDS back to back and everyone in your raid is like "whoah calm down" but that happens few and far between. I personally don't like the 4s, but I guess it'll grow on me since I only had it this reset.

[Deleted]

No problemo

Logs from our kills this week:

Oregorger https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
Flamebender https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
Hans https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&fight=12 (the only one where I was last and that was due to death).
Gruul https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e-done&fight=3
Darmac https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e-done&fight=7
Thogar https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&fight=16
Kromog https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

And that's just me. In the hands of quality rets, the figures are even more pronounced.

Well... you did put some data... irrelevant as its 1 log that proves nothing as it has people of various skill (and i can assure you, in hands of quality players those other classes would be even more ahead thus the figures would be even more pronounced), but still... it also proves my point! Mediocre at best at all fights, but bottom overall... means on each fight that favors some classes they are more ahead of paladin than they are behind on those that dont favor them... essentially being a net gain to have combination of all those classes instead of paladin in a balanced raid... and if you stack on fight to fight basis, you would stack those ahead of paladin on each fight anyway... 10th overall, 4-6th on all fights... sounds about right! Horrible state...

Hell, if it was 1st on 1-2 fights but last overall, it would be more fine than this... as you would at least want them on those fights... on all fights you want something ahead of paladin, and overall you want 9 out of 10 ahead of paladin.

In a very good state indeed... being 9th out of 10 dps with 0 unique utility and excelling at nothing... while relying on having ok luck not to drop 5k dps sure sounds like very good state

[anaxie]

Right now I'm playing retripala at a relatively high-end level (7/10 mythic), but I can not stop ripping my hair off from the pure randomness of my damage output. Basically all my damage is dependent on proccs! If I don't get any proccs my damage will be complete shite, no matter if at one time divine purpose (I have 4set) decides to procc 10 times in a row. I can only do above average DPS (bar the tries when DP decides to actually work) when I have my Avenging Wrath up.

It's all too random. I simulate at 40.3k DPS, but it fluctuates between 30k and 45k at all times.

Let's recap: Divine Purpose! 2set! Excorcism! Divine storm proccs! 2x procc trinkets! All proccs!

How are we supposed to compete at a normal level with these mechanics? Why are we forced to live the life of the ultimate roulette ball?

Do you think that this will ever be remedied, or is our class designer a degenerate gambler?

Same issue in a 7/10 guild stuck with heroic tectus trunk and scabbard didn't help the random output when doing stuff like gruul since scabbard doesn't help a passive dpfv damage build much. Brf is prolly the only raid since tier 4 I've willinging sat everything on mythic partial to burnout and insanely bad trinket drops

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Not even mentioning out mediocre aoe which is bullshit with things like blade flurry starfall chaos wave and necrotic plauge existing

[Varabently]

I find procs to be really fun actually. I've been using DP forever and even if it doesn't sim higher, it's still more fun.

I get that you want stable damage, but I find it hard to believe your damage fluctuates between 30 and 45k on the same fight, same length with similar situations. For example, if you get the pulverize thing on Gruul over and over your dps will go down vs. not getting it at all.

Those sorts of things can make your DPS fluctuate, but I don't believe the procs really do. I'd like to see a log to prove it. Otherwise its just hyperbole. Edit: Logs from each fight in a raid don't prove anything since the fights vary so much. I mean a cleave fight will obviously give you higher numbers than oregorger. That doesn't prove anything. You have to look at similar ilevel across lots of parses to see this. I'm not saying it's not there, I'm just saying it doesn't fluctuate 15k like the OP says.

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1. Paladin dps is worst of all classes atm, or 10th out of 11.

2. Ret has absolutely no unique support, thats why they are nowhere to be found in progression mode. (also very strange saying how they are good for progression, seeing how they are being avoided or benched for exactly that)

Aren't Hand of sac and protection unique?

[threads]

Procs are only fun when you get good rng. I don't think the 4p would be so annoying if BrF wasn't an aoe-fest. Just caters to all the 1 button aoe classes. Plus the retarded nerf on divine storm range.

[drtrann]

I find procs to be really fun actually. I've been using DP forever and even if it doesn't sim higher, it's still more fun.

I get that you want stable damage, but I find it hard to believe your damage fluctuates between 30 and 45k on the same fight, same length with similar situations. For example, if you get the pulverize thing on Gruul over and over your dps will go down vs. not getting it at all.

Those sorts of things can make your DPS fluctuate, but I don't believe the procs really do. I'd like to see a log to prove it. Otherwise its just hyperbole. Edit: Logs from each fight in a raid don't prove anything since the fights vary so much. I mean a cleave fight will obviously give you higher numbers than oregorger. That doesn't prove anything. You have to look at similar ilevel across lots of parses to see this. I'm not saying it's not there, I'm just saying it doesn't fluctuate 15k like the OP says.

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Aren't Hand of sac and protection unique?

holy + prot have both. many guilds are running 2x holy paly + at least 1 prot paladin, so theirs no reason to bring a ret if you can bring pretty much any other melee class.