Bolvar double voice

[sam86]

Simple question, that I don't know its answer
I was under impression that Ner'zhul is still alive and over-controlled Bolvar the instant he put the crown (Bolvar showed he is stupid mind when Onyxia played him for quite long), but with Aquamonkey links from Blizzard, Ner'zhul is over, dead
So... any explanation? Did the crown give him LK voice because it can? Any reason beside it was 'cool' ?

[Schmilblick]

Maybe a fragment from Ner'zhul mind is still in the crown

[shoc]

Honestly, I think it just happened to emphasize that Bolvar was becoming the next Lich King. Arthas killed the spirit of Ner'zhul as well as his own Humanity, and assumed full control of the Lich King. When Arthas died, he went to Hell, and the Helm of Domination laid empty. For a brief moment before the LK dying, and Bolvar putting on the helmet, we can assume that all Scourge in the world had free will, and mindless zombies having free will just means 'go on an unstoppable rampage across the world'. Which is why "there must always be a Lich King".

There is only Bolvar inside the helmet and as the Jailor of the Damned he is basically just acting as an supervisor to the Scourge of the world and keeping them in check. Based on the fact that he isn't a villain yet, we can assume that Bolvar's will is stronger than the corrupting influence of the Helm of Domination, which I believe is inherently built into the helmet by the Nathrezim when it was created.

[Jokubas]

Honestly, nothing about the Lich King makes any sense. We'll have to wait until they use Bolvar to get any kind of sense of what they want to do with him.

There must always be a Lich King or the Scourge will get worse? Then how come when he was dying in Frozen Throne, the Scourge were either dying off or regaining their minds (the Forsaken)?

If Arthas killed Ner'zhul, why was he still evil? If he destroyed his humanity, why did he seem normal after the helmet came off?

[TickTickTick]

How can you kill a spirit tho? Ner'zhul wasn't dumb, he might have manipulated Arthas into thinking that he's gone, yet still hide and exist to try overtake the next body should this one fail.

[dirk123]

If Arthas killed Ner'zhul, why was he still evil? If he destroyed his humanity, why did he seem normal after the helmet came off?

Because when he picked up Frostmourne, his soul was the first to go. Cuz no soul = evil apparently.
He didn;t really kll his humanity, he simply casted tha lasts bit of "Arthas" out. (removing his heart) but his goodness was still kicking during the Icecrown quests as a ghost boy which used an anagram of his name: Mathias Lehner (or something like that).
Because Frostmourne shattered he got his soul and thus his humanity back.

[Mormolyce]

I disagree that Ner'zhul is gone entirely due to the Lich King mentioning that he used to be a Shaman in the Howling Fjord quest chain. IMO in-game lore trumps novel lore (I believe the quote you refer to is from Arthas: RoLK).

I read it as the Lich King personality being a separate entity from Ner'zhul and Arthas - their personalities remained inside the Lich King but overwhelmed by it. Arthas appears to have truly "died", which may mean that he's no longer a part of the Lich King or that he's simply an echo inside the helm. Hard to say.

This is just my personal interpretation. Unless Blizzard decides to do something with Bolvar I doubt we'll get a clear answer. I know the forums are full of Lich King fans, but honestly I think Blizzard viewed Bolvar taking the Helm as essentially the end of the character.

[Aquamonkey]

I disagree that Ner'zhul is gone entirely due to the Lich King mentioning that he used to be a Shaman in the Howling Fjord quest chain. IMO in-game lore trumps novel lore (I believe the quote you refer to is from Arthas: RoLK).

Really, the novels/extended lore should trump game lore if they are published near each other. Game lore is fudged so much for gameplay and suffers from "too many cooks in the kitchen" with different people writing different quests. Blizz described the in-game events as being an alternative depiction of Arthas' story that players can experience without reading the novel.

The part about Arthas destroying Ner'zhul's soul is in RotLK and the manga. Both of which were published after WotLK, so they get that "new lore > old lore". And it was backed by Ask CDev and Metzen himself a couple times.

[Aquamonkey]

The moment Arthas put on the helmet, in the end of the Frozen Throne campaign, both he and Ner'zhul ceased to exist as individual beeings. Their spirits, minds and memories have merged into a single entity henceforth known as the Lich King.

What we're dealing with in the RotLK novel is a conflict between the last remnants of their singular personalities (think of schizophrenia), NOT the beeings themselves (as they no longer exist at that point), NOT their souls (as Arthas' soul is not even a part of the Lich King). Now, Arthas' personality emerged victorious, which, in addition to his former body beeing the host of LK's power, is why he is beeing equated to Arthas throughout the WotLK expansion. Make no mistake, we've fought neither Arthas nor Ner'zhul in ICC. We've fought the Lich King, an entirely separate beeing.

Why do you think replacing the Lich King was considered such a great sacrifice on Bolvar's part? It's because it wasn't about taking its powers, but becoming its next host. It was about taking on a burden of eternal struggle with the will of the previous masters of the Scourge. Exactly as in Arthas' case, Bolvar as we knew him is no more. His entire mind, memories, skills and personality are now part of the Lich King, merged with those of Arthas and Ner'zhul.

There should be no surprise in his voice beeing identical to the one of the the previous Lich King. Because it actually is the very same Lich King, just with another layer of personality added on top of its former self and with a fancy (?) new host body.

Arthas haven't killed Ner'zhul. The Lich King did. And, as I've mentioned above, it wasn't Ner'zhul per se, but only his personality.

The Lich King has the memories of both Arthas and Ner'zhul (and now Bolvar, as well), so it's natural for him to remember the time spent as a shaman.

Their personalities weren't simply overwhelmed, they were fused, they are what makes the Lich King. They are gone and yet still there, just not separate anymore.

Arthas (his soul) was never part of the Lich King, as it was absorbed by Frostmourne. His mind/personality was. And mind/personality does not die, it's still there, it's part of what the Lich King is.

This is directly contradicted by Blizzard's later statements and materials. Blizzard changed direction they were going with that. Initially they were a perfect fusion, yes. But they later decided to keep their spirits separate. Arthas destroyed and consumed Ner'zhul's spirit before he awoke on the Frozen Throne. Arthas is intended to be the "ultimate expression" of the Lich King.

Arthas murders the manifestation of his humanity, then destroys Ner'zhul:

“We are one, Arthas. Together, we are the Lich King. No more Ner’zhul, no more Arthas—only this one glorious being. With my knowledge, we can—”
His eyes bulged as the sword impaled him.
Arthas stepped forward, plunging the glittering, hungering Frostmourne ever deeper into the dream-being that had once been Ner’zhul, then the Lich King, and was soon to be nothing, nothing at all. He slipped his other arm around the body, pressing his lips so close to the green ear that the gesture was almost intimate, as intimate as the act of taking a life always was and always would be.
“No,” Arthas whispered. “No we. No one tells me what to do. I’ve got everything I need from you—now the power is mine and mine alone. Now there is only I. I am the Lich King. And I am ready.”
The orc shuddered in his arms, stunned by the betrayal, and vanished.
...
Arthas, the Lich King, alone in his glory and power, slowly opened his eyes.
--Rise of the Lich King

In the manga Legends: Fate, Arthas says, "Ner'zhul is no more. He is consumed. There is only Arthas now..."

During BlizzCon 2010, Metzen said Arthas was the ultimate expression of the LK and that Ner'zhul is finished:

Q. I have a question regarding the storyline of Ner'zhul: is he finished, or what's going on with that?
A. "Yes. Yeah, Ner'zhul is done. He served us well in that capacity, but really the Lich King idea... really has the ultimate expression, you know, as Arthas or whatever. Ner'zhul's done." (Source)

The Ask CDev says Ner'zhul and Arthas had separate reigns as Lich King:

Yes, that does also mean that Arthas and Ner'zhul were not unleashing the full force of the Scourge during their respective reigns: you are welcome to speculate on the reasons for that. (AskCDev2)

Metzen says Ner'zhul is completely gone:

Is ne'zhul completely gone gone?
Far as I'm concerned. (ChrisMetzen)

All of the above items came after WotLK was released.

[Aquamonkey]

It really does not contradict anything I've said.

Arthas WAS the ultimate expression of the Lich King. His personality became the dominating one, pushing back Ner'zhul's thought patterns was essentialy the same as "killing" him. There was no spirit of Ner'zhul, the entity was explicitly called a "dream-being", a symbolic representation of that part of the Lich King's mind, which consisted mainly of the orc shaman's former self.

The Lich King still DOES have Ner'zhul's memories (as shown throughout quests in Northrend) ergo it still consists of Ner'zhul. It's only that Arthas' personality is in power.

Except everything coming after the game says that Arthas was alone and had a separate reign from Ner'zhul. And that Ner'zhul became nothing, was gone, consumed, done, and finished. Initially, Ner'zhul and Arthas were a perfect fusion, but Blizzard changed it. The person who wrote that quest didn't get the memo.

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(which, even now, is the base of the Lich King's power, stored inside the Helm of Domination)?

Word of god says Ner'zhul is "completely gone gone." He's not in the helm.

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So... any explanation? Did the crown give him LK voice because it can? Any reason beside it was 'cool' ?

Rule of cool.

If you want to over-analyze it, the LK is still empowered by all the souls of the Scourge. In a way, Bolvar is sort of speaking with the cacophony of all those souls. Since Bolvar is a decent dude, he might form a better relationship with them than the previous LKs. Kinda like Van Hohenheim in FMA.

[Orloth]

Does anyone else find it incrdibly suspicious that ICC was built out of Saronite (the blood of Yogg-Saron) while Arthas was napping?

*Dons tin-foil hat*

Ner'zhul's first conflict as the Lich King was the War of the Spider between the Lich King/Dreadlords and Azjol-Nerub which resulted in the extermination of most of the Nerubians and the awakening of Yogg-Saron. Shortly after, the Lich King did something that he shouldn't have been able to do: He betrayed the Legion. Connect the Dots. The Vry'kul follow the 'Death God', Yogg-Saron, and the Val'kyr are his heralds; yet they both follow the Lich King without question. Are they mistaken, or do they know more then we're told? There must always be a Lich King because the Lich King holds the Scourge at bay. Yogg-Saron's prison was breached in the War of the Spider, we didn't kill him in Ulduar, Yogg-Saron is the Scourge, and the Lich King is the only thing stopping him from completely taking over and running loose. Arthas was delibrately grooming Bolvar to succeed him because he knew he was loosing his grip, just as Ner'zhul made sure Arthas was there to succeed him. That's going to be one big mess for us to clean up when we have to return to Northrend for an Azjol-Nerub/Dark Below expansion.

But that's just a theory.

Edit to add: the personalities in Arthas: RotLK were young Arthas, Old Arthas, and Ner'zhul. At the end, Old Arthas killed the young Arthas and Ner'zhul. What if we've been interpretting that scene incorrectly, and Old Arthas was actually the Yogg-Saron personality?

Also, notice the color scheme between Yogg-Saron's chamber and the glaciers in ICC. There's just too many direct correlations between Yogg-Saron and the Scourge. "He will learn, no king reigns forever".

[Mormolyce]

Really, the novels/extended lore should trump game lore if they are published near each other. Game lore is fudged so much for gameplay and suffers from "too many cooks in the kitchen" with different people writing different quests. Blizz described the in-game events as being an alternative depiction of Arthas' story that players can experience without reading the novel.

The part about Arthas destroying Ner'zhul's soul is in RotLK and the manga. Both of which were published after WotLK, so they get that "new lore > old lore". And it was backed by Ask CDev and Metzen himself a couple times.

I'm pretty sure they're done with Ner'zhul from a storytelling perspective, I'll agree on that.

In normal fiction primary canon > secondary canon regardless of publication date. Blizzard seems to operate under a rule where more recent canon > older canon regardless of source.

But in reality I suspect it actually goes "whatever interpretation of canon seems cool at the moment" > other canon.

P.S. In my headcanon anything patently ridiculous like manga versions is way down the canon list :P

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Except everything coming after the game says that Arthas was alone and had a separate reign from Ner'zhul. And that Ner'zhul became nothing, was gone, consumed, done, and finished. Initially, Ner'zhul and Arthas were a perfect fusion, but Blizzard changed it. The person who wrote that quest didn't get the memo.

Honestly, they probably don't really care that much about it.

What this means for Bolvar is anyone's guess.