Can wow stop killing off major villains now?

[Gadzooks]

Why do you guys never word that properly and post it on the official forum. I mean...if you are SERIOUS about this? Here it comes across as pretty off-hand "meh if I care"

Not subbed. Can't post in the forums without a sub, and I'm not paying $14.99 to post there.

Blizzard reads here. They even post here. If they care, they'll see it. Whether they care or not, is another story.

- - - Updated - - -

Can we start killing Jaina and Varian?

Varian needs to die. He's just a dick, the alliance hate him, the horde hate him, Jaina freindzoned him, his son hates him (he should have died at the Divine Bell), and the story of the fight for who gets the throne could take many expansions to tell - plus, a weakened alliance loses more territory to Voljin, a new king is found who's a better general than Varian, and kicks Voljin in the nuts and clears Azeroth of Horde up past Southshore and all the way to Booty Bay, the war cranks back up, the Alliance have a real leader, the war gets really fun. Think replacing Chamberlain with Churchill. Someone who will fight, not spout "I will END YOU...if Jaina lets me." I mean, talk about beta - he's not even hitting that, and she orders him around.

The alliance needs a leader who will tell Jaina to get him a flagon of wine, while he's making battle plans, or she gets spanked. Yes, I know, that's sexist, but I'll be politically correct in WoW when they remove the chain mail bikinis and basketball boobs on all the females, and dat ass on blood elf females. Anyway, yeah - we want a real leader for the alliance, not some conflicted jerk face like Varion, with his hippy, emo son. They need to bring some factions into the alliance, with claims on the throne, and throw a Game of Thrones, ending with Varion's head bouncing hollowly (because it's empty) down the steps of Stormwind Keep. We need a Cercei, and a Tyrion, and a Tywin. Conspiracy, deceit, backstabbing. That's why the Onyxia chain was awesome - it had all that.

Damn it, Metzen, go read some fantasy classics and give us characters we care about, not just a bunch of existential orcs trying to figure out their inner orc-ness.

[looorg]

The beauty of the weekly reset, nobody ever really dies.

[arcaneshot]

Not subbed. Can't post in the forums without a sub, and I'm not paying $14.99 to post there.

Blizzard reads here. They even post here. If they care, they'll see it. Whether they care or not, is another story.

I don't think the people you think are reading here are the ones you want to be posting for.

[Gadzooks]

I don't think the people you think are reading here are the ones you want to be posting for.

Honestly, I don't really care. I post here for amusement, I don't have that kind of agenda. If I wanted to get certain people's attention, I'd resub and yell at them in their own forums, god knows I did that when I was subbed.

[Feel The Power]

You'll always have Onyxia and Onyxia 2 and Zombie Onyxia

But I want Zombie Zombie Onyxia...the zombie of a zombie of a dragon (with diabetes on mythic mode).

[Blufossa]

I think Jaina Proudmoore could become a raid boss one day.. if she continues war mongering.

Defending her people in Dalaran and the Alliance (Theramore) =/= warmongering.

But yeah, I wish Varian would've just killed Garrosh. Or Baine.

Garrosh's character development made no sense and they pawned off any positive attributes he may have had, like a commitment to honour, to his alternate universe father who never actually fathered anyone in said alternate universe.

This. Before MoP, Garrosh was actually pretty fucking epic. Then they fucked up his character in a book (that a lot of people didn't read) and then proceeded to use him as a boss and link to WoD.

[Mace]

Garrosh's character development made no sense and they pawned off any positive attributes he may have had, like a commitment to honour, to his alternate universe father who never actually fathered anyone in said alternate universe.

I suspect what they are doing, is trying to distance Grommash from Garrosh, and we find out that they were never related, so he's not a Hellscream..because Grommash must become a Horde hero, and Garrosh was a huge mistake.

- - - Updated - - -

Defending her people in Dalaran and the Alliance (Theramore) =/= warmongering.

But yeah, I wish Varian would've just killed Garrosh. Or Baine.


This. Before MoP, Garrosh was actually pretty fucking epic. Then they fucked up his character in a book (that a lot of people didn't read) and then proceeded to use him as a boss and link to WoD.

what book was that?

and yeah, Moonblade is right, if Jaina's warmongering is worth her being a raid boss, then that is exactly what should become of many of the horde leaders, maybe Bairne and Lor'themar exempt.

[Teaon]

it doesn't necessarily have to be a setback for the villian, i seriously want to see a raid where we go into a raid like for example blackfoundry

we meddle and mess with it and then blackhand comes and say ENOUGH MEDDLERS, we fight him, he smash us with his huge hammer and we retreat to fight him another day, but this setback is on US not the VILLIAN.

didnt see this happen, well a glimpse of it at the end on wotlk where tirion ruined the moment :/

[Doombringer]

Villains should die. Too much of "he got away!" and you frustrate your players.

Look at Garrosh. The entire Cataclysm and Pandaria storyline was leading up to him being dethroned. At the end of Pandaria, we do accomplish this... but we do not kill him. The entire "trial" thing was a sham. Did the Pandaren put the Yaungol, Mogu or Mantid on trial at any point? It felt very, very forced and not very satisfying. His eventual death in Warlords felt tacked on. The cinematic was enjoyable, but I didn't have a fist-pumping moment.

[Teaon]

Villains should die. Too much of "he got away!" and you frustrate your players.

Look at Garrosh. The entire Cataclysm and Pandaria storyline was leading up to him being dethroned. At the end of Pandaria, we do accomplish this... but we do not kill him. The entire "trial" thing was a sham. Did the Pandaren put the Yaungol, Mogu or Mantid on trial at any point? It felt very, very forced and not very satisfying. His eventual death in Warlords felt tacked on. The cinematic was enjoyable, but I didn't have a fist-pumping moment.

why not the way around? why shouldn't WE be the ones who " GOT AWAY "

[elvor0]

I'm not a fan of how minimal the pruning was. There's still plenty of bloat and convoluted priorities across a handful of specs. Unless you were hoping your class got to keep a silence that almost no one else had, you aren't likely to notice any pruning.

Unless you play Blood DK, I guess.

Shaman springs to mind, my toolbar is a mess of abilites and totems that aren't really useful or useful only when the planets align. I know Totems are kind of the iconic element of the class, but so many of them need a retool or merge to be useful.

OT: No. This isn't an 80s cartoon show, Villains are supposed to get defeated, that's why they're villians. One that ends up being a tale of redemption might be interesting, but to stop killing of Villains all together is just silly.

[The Stormbringer]

I'm personally still waiting for the Ghost of Kael'thas to make an appearance.

[anaxie]

The iconic villains are one reason why wow is so successful vs the cesspit of other MMOs with average story and forgettable characters

Wow had / has

Old gods c'thun / yogg saron / Sha one / N'zoth
Elemental lords Ragnaros/ Al'akir/ neptulon
Twighlight cult and ChoGall
The TBC illidan posse Kael vashj illidan
The scourge. Arthas kelthuzad anubarak
Black dragonflight

And iconic heroes too like thrall tirion ashbringer malfurion alexstraza ect.

The game is rich and villains we know about but havnt killed are highly anticipated azshara / kiljaeden

WoD gave us the perfect chance to showcase learn about and have an epic raid fight with one of the most diabolical evil pricks to ever be in any game ever. Gul'dan. At least at some point illidan kael or art has had good ententions. Not guldan he's out to fuck you for his gain always

[TheMediator]

have an epic raid fight with one of the most diabolical evil pricks to ever be in any game ever. Gul'dan.

They've done a good job building up AU Gul'dan but honestly, MU Gul'dan was never really that scary. He's a giant tool. He had to cower before Doomhammer not to be executed for treason, his betrayal destroyed both the Horde's hopes and the Burning Legion's hopes to win the 2nd war, etc. The only things he really did were create Deathknights and have his skull nommed on by Illidan. At least, as far as the games are concerned. Ner'zhul was always a bigger threat than him, and there's a reason that Ner'zhul was the big man who came out on top through the rivalry of Ner'zhul v Gul'dan via proxies (Arthas and Illidan).

The iconic villains are one reason why wow is so successful vs the cesspit of other MMOs with average story and forgettable characters

I agree with this though. I never really cared for Rag or Nefarion TBH, but TBC was just packed, PACKED with lore characters and really iconic foes. It isn't just the villains though - the places themselves are places you want to raid. Icecrown. Black Temple. Karazhan. Orgrimmar. Blackrock Foundry.

[Morthulo]

Villains are the reason we play most games. If we had the same villains all the time, things would get boring very fast.

Villains should do things in games that make you sit there and think to yourself "Wow, I can't believe that just happened... I can't let him/her get away with this, I have to stop him/her".

When you have a villain that can effect players emotionally by their actions in game.... Only then can you say you have created a truly successful villain.

[Mace]

No, killing villains is part of playing video games.
Not sure what you expected.
Minor made-up villains to die?

This expansion is the prime example of why the alternate universe thing worked really well too.
We were able to kill Nerzul and Blackhand without feeling like we were breaking the game.

what if it turns out everything starting from TBC onwards was actually an alternate reality, like WoD, caused by Illidan opening the dark portal and WC4, or WoW 2, reverts back to that point with a completely different history set

[anaxie]

They've done a good job building up AU Gul'dan but honestly, MU Gul'dan was never really that scary. He's a giant tool. He had to cower before Doomhammer not to be executed for treason, his betrayal destroyed both the Horde's hopes and the Burning Legion's hopes to win the 2nd war, etc. The only things he really did were create Deathknights and have his skull nommed on by Illidan. At least, as far as the games are concerned. Ner'zhul was always a bigger threat than him, and there's a reason that Ner'zhul was the big man who came out on top through the rivalry of Ner'zhul v Gul'dan via proxies (Arthas and Illidan).



I agree with this though. I never really cared for Rag or Nefarion TBH, but TBC was just packed, PACKED with lore characters and really iconic foes. It isn't just the villains though - the places themselves are places you want to raid. Icecrown. Black Temple. Karazhan. Orgrimmar. Blackrock Foundry.

Uh guldan is the entire reason the orcs went to azeroth and that horde and Warcraft itself exists. He's the original bad guy of the franchise

Wotlk had icecrown citidel prolly the most iconic raid setting in the game beside black temple

[Ponji]

I'm actually quite disappointed with how easily some of the villains in this expansion are falling, as well as the handling of certain villains in the past.

1. Garrosh - Everyone agrees he's an egotistical a-hole, genocidal maniac, yadda yadda. Here's the thing, I was FURIOUS with the way Blizzard decided to ruin the entire ending of his storyline. I was literally red in my face, because I felt like it was an incredible disservice to the character and to the community. To have Thrall show up with his 10x Plot armor and ruin the entire experience was absolutely the worst thing I've ever seen in the game.

2. Kael'thas - The way Blizzard both introduced him AND subsequently killed him off lacked both imagination and depth. Very disappointed here.

3. Arthas/Lich King - I actually LOVED the way they made him involved in the player story lines and quests, and how we didn't get to deal with him until the end of the expac. I thought the execution was relatively brilliant, and if they did most major bosses this way I'd be stoked and would probably enjoy the game a bit more.

4. All Current WoD bosses - Highmaul, what the hell's the point? Poor intro, poor execution lore-wise, just really doesn't make a whole lot of sense and just to add to the extra flavor, they throw Kargath under the bus right away. BRF - Most of it makes sense, but you never hear/see Blackhand prior to actually getting to his room. You never see him beyond a couple of in-game cinematics (unless I've missed something quest-wise) and I feel like that's a bit disappointing. He has such a cool backstory in the AU, it would've been great to see that teased out a little more before we had to cut him up into little pieces and steal his arm for a quest.

People I'd like to see dead in-game:

1. Thrall - Strip his plot armor and please, someone, dear god, make him take a spear to the face. SOMETHING, ANYTHING, #killgreenjesus. His character is so over developed, to the point of near immortality in the WoW universe, it makes me sick. I think it's irresponsible to have let one character grow world's beyond his britches, and the last time that happened was with mediv, who ended up screwing Azaroth over pretty hard.

2. Jaina OR Varian - Either of them could go at this point. Varian's actually seemed a bit more maturely developed since the end of MoP and SoO, but in the World of WARcraft, WAR is the only constant thing. WAR typically needs a catalyst, and killing off the leader of the Kirin-Tor and princess of the Alliance or it's fancy haired leader would be a great way to light a fire between the two factions. I don't even care if it's relevant. OFF WITH THEIR HEAD(s)!!!

3. All ogres. Because they're ogres, and I can't play one.

4. Magni Bronzebeard - We need some sort of conversation about whether he's still a functional dude, or if he's dead, or what his deal is. It'd be really cool to see him come back "soon" from his little crystal nap, but if he came back and then was subsequently killed off for some reason (aka elemental revolt, spear to the face, big angry dragon, etc.) that might give people some closure as to what happened with the poor guy. Also, screw the council ruling Ironforge right now. Throw all three of those clowns in an arena with sharp pointy sticks and lets see who come's out alive, and crown them leader of the dwarves. Hopefully, Moira gets it in the face, repeatedly.

[Gadzooks]

I'm actually quite disappointed with how easily some of the villains in this expansion are falling, as well as the handling of certain villains in the past.

1. Garrosh - Everyone agrees he's an egotistical a-hole, genocidal maniac, yadda yadda. Here's the thing, I was FURIOUS with the way Blizzard decided to ruin the entire ending of his storyline. I was literally red in my face, because I felt like it was an incredible disservice to the character and to the community. To have Thrall show up with his 10x Plot armor and ruin the entire experience was absolutely the worst thing I've ever seen in the game.

2. Kael'thas - The way Blizzard both introduced him AND subsequently killed him off lacked both imagination and depth. Very disappointed here.

3. Arthas/Lich King - I actually LOVED the way they made him involved in the player story lines and quests, and how we didn't get to deal with him until the end of the expac. I thought the execution was relatively brilliant, and if they did most major bosses this way I'd be stoked and would probably enjoy the game a bit more.

4. All Current WoD bosses - Highmaul, what the hell's the point? Poor intro, poor execution lore-wise, just really doesn't make a whole lot of sense and just to add to the extra flavor, they throw Kargath under the bus right away. BRF - Most of it makes sense, but you never hear/see Blackhand prior to actually getting to his room. You never see him beyond a couple of in-game cinematics (unless I've missed something quest-wise) and I feel like that's a bit disappointing. He has such a cool backstory in the AU, it would've been great to see that teased out a little more before we had to cut him up into little pieces and steal his arm for a quest.

People I'd like to see dead in-game:

1. Thrall - Strip his plot armor and please, someone, dear god, make him take a spear to the face. SOMETHING, ANYTHING, #killgreenjesus. His character is so over developed, to the point of near immortality in the WoW universe, it makes me sick. I think it's irresponsible to have let one character grow world's beyond his britches, and the last time that happened was with mediv, who ended up screwing Azaroth over pretty hard.

2. Jaina OR Varian - Either of them could go at this point. Varian's actually seemed a bit more maturely developed since the end of MoP and SoO, but in the World of WARcraft, WAR is the only constant thing. WAR typically needs a catalyst, and killing off the leader of the Kirin-Tor and princess of the Alliance or it's fancy haired leader would be a great way to light a fire between the two factions. I don't even care if it's relevant. OFF WITH THEIR HEAD(s)!!!

3. All ogres. Because they're ogres, and I can't play one.

4. Magni Bronzebeard - We need some sort of conversation about whether he's still a functional dude, or if he's dead, or what his deal is. It'd be really cool to see him come back "soon" from his little crystal nap, but if he came back and then was subsequently killed off for some reason (aka elemental revolt, spear to the face, big angry dragon, etc.) that might give people some closure as to what happened with the poor guy. Also, screw the council ruling Ironforge right now. Throw all three of those clowns in an arena with sharp pointy sticks and lets see who come's out alive, and crown them leader of the dwarves. Hopefully, Moira gets it in the face, repeatedly.

Varion's gotta go. The alliance never warmed up to him as a "leader", because he wasn't around that much, and when he did show up finally, the character was so dull and lifeless and cliched, nobody cared. Garona could cut his head off and play soccer with it out the front door of Stormwind, and nobody would get upset. His son is worse. He's a weak, hippyish doofus who only real use is to get lost and almost getting killed by the Horde. He hasn't done anything to make him a "leader", if that's what Metzen has in mind. He abandoned his kingdom in MoP, and had to be drug back.

For all of Varion's talk of "ENDING" people, we champions and Thrall and the eventual Horde leader Voljin did all the work. Varian showed up in Pandaria, and then...did what? We killed the Thunder King. WE killed half of Orgrimmar and almost Garrosh. Where was he? The only time he ever showed any real leadership was the taking of the Undercity in Wrath. WoD, it's even worse. We're sent over, alone, no resources, to combat the iron horde. We build a garrison, we ally with the Draenei, we pay for our garrison upgrades out of our own pockets, and then all of a sudden, there his is, taking credit for what WE did?

Varion's head needs to bounce down the steps of Stormwind, after a coup and revolt, and a change of family on the throne. Anduin can go hide behind Jaina's skirts in Dalaran. The Alliance needs a king to rally behind, to instill patriotism and loyalty, and to kick ass and take names. We need a Bolvar, not a Varian. We need an Uther.

That's the one thing Horde players had - that sense of pride, being led by Thrall, before Metzen made him Orc Jesus. The Alliance never had that. We didn't even have a real leader in vanilla, just some ugly kid with blond hair everyone was fighting over, and almost lost his throne to a dragon.

Sadly, I don't think Metzen has any interest in returning to the dwarves or gnomes, in any meaningful way.

[undeadmoon]

The last time WoW decided to go the route of creating new villains was MoP and it alienated the idiots who were all "durr who are these people this is outside my comfort zone".

Pretty much this is why we'll only see "rehashes" of the same old few or some take off on them. Hell, there was a world of shit over Draenei, let alone Pandaren, and they're not even major baddies in their respective expansions.

People want familiar, and then they want to complain when the familiar isn't different or new enough.