How do you remain positive on Wipe Nights?

[L3fty]

Hey raiders,

As the title says, how do you keep a positive frame of mind on progression nights where you are wiping for 3 hours+ on a boss?

We entered Mythic BRF for the first time last night, and I can honestly say i've never been in a raid with such a depressing, suicidal atmosphere. We wiped 12 times on beastlord and nearly all of those were sub 5% with a 1% wipe thrown in for extra stress.

The problem is we don't have anyone coming in with positive words. I do my best by saying things like 'come on guys, we are so close now, let's do this!' but it feels like a pointless echo in a dark and gloomy cave.

The trouble is we have a backdrop of people swearing at each other, sighing heavily down the mic, and just generally adding to a bad atmosphere. My thoughts on Mythic progression is that it is very hard and people will mess up, but there has to be some kind of fun going on. Last night when the raid ended I literally felt like I should just quit raiding. It was that bad. I was sitting in my chair head in my hands just wanting someone to lighten the mood. It's not easy when the Officer tells us to shape the fuck up, and then says we are looking for raiders and will pay gold to anyone that finds someone decent. (I found this somewhat amusing at the time, but in hindsight I think this is a terrible thing to say to a team of stressed and demoralized players.)

So any tips on what I could say to rally the raid group? In the guild I am seen as the positive guy, but I'm on my own and not an Officer.

[Slykz]

When you're at close kill % like 1-5%, you make people care about themselves and min max. Tell people to get the 125 food, augment runes and tell them to save CDs from 30% to p4 and such, have them min max their dps to when they need it, and make them care about themselves. Its not a raiders job to lecture others except small tips and tricks to min max. People shouldn't take the RL's role and scream/argue with others.

When we had low % wipes on beastlord, i did everything i could to push enough dps in p4, and you need people to worry about themselves and set themselves a goal to be able to do their best at that point for it to be a kill. Obviously taking a break at the worst points help aswell. have people take a piss, get something to drink or smoke.

If you're not the raid leader, this could be hard however.

[Deleted]

We tend to spend most of our time taking the piss out of each other to lighten the mood. alternatively you could send everyone links to funny videos on efukt . com. There are some crazy videos on there...

[Terridon]

A few that banters, and comes with jokes regardless of the wipes helps a lot. But you need somebody to be cheerfull enough for that too, to keep it going between you.

If they really need to vent they should take it private with RL and let him/her deal with it, instead of making it overall hostile. I guess sighing is hard to stop.. XD
A raid going depressed from sub 5% wipes and a 1% wipe, instead of going "we got this" seems a bit weak willed for what will come later.

What bullrog talks about works well too. Easy way to make things more fun.

[Deleted]

Progression wipefests just don't bother me.
What gets me kind of mad though are farm nights where you suddenly start wiping on an old boss over and over again.

[Deja Thoris]

I can't even phrase this nicely: I don't have this problem because I don't raid with a bunch of cunts.

At the start of the expac we had 4/5 people in our team that soured the atmosphere. To the extent that even when we scored our first Imperator HC kill people were still bickering about whether we should have focussed the big add / burned the boss / whatever. It was the first end boss kill I never took any satisfaction from or heard happy whoops about over comms.

I did what I should have done a few weeks later and kicked them (to be fair one left - I hoofed the rest). Since then we have fun raiding, celebrate our successes and work to improve on our shortcomings. If I was in a guild with an atmosphere that sounds that toxic after a mere 12 wipes on a mythic boss I'd be gone in a heartbeat.

[Tyrgannus]

There's an element of personal responsibility that needs to be addressed. You can only do so much. Progression raiding on the hardest difficulty in the latest raid = lots of wipes. It's just plain part of it. Everyone in the raid has to come to terms with that and use wipes as learning experiences. Each attempt is just that; an attempt. They are not a waste of time. They are an opportunity to learn and fine tune.

[Nights]

im just fine thank you for asking

[Reivur]

I could see them get agitated if maybe it was one or two people screwing up the same mechanics again and again, but the way its phrased sounds like things just need to generally be tighter... in which case, I don't know what the bad mood is about. Its a progression fight. Getting it that low is a good thing; at worst, the next week you should get it just from ilvl gains alone.

[Yuna]

Progression wipefests just don't bother me.
What gets me kind of mad though are farm nights where you suddenly start wiping on an old boss over and over again.

Exactly this, during progression it should be clear to everyone that bosses usually take a certain amount of tries to go down. Talk about errors/fails and check your live-logs so you can improve and kill the entry bosses instead of repeating mistakes.

As for beastlord, just save dps cooldowns + 2nd pot and bloodlust for beastlord after faultline dies, usually a safe kill.

[Deleted]

Brandy

/10char

[Deleted]

I introduced one rule during my raid leading times that I was very strict on - if you want to complain, whine, sigh or do anything not related to the fight or raid, don't say it on vent.

During attempts you can banter (if no tactic changes take place), or give your opinion/view/ideas, but pointless sighing or swearing does not add any value to anyone. If you want to swear because it makes you feel better, fine, but don't do it on vent.

[Nimalla]

There's a nice blog out there regarding guild issues called guildmasters.org and they have a specific article that might give you some insight: http://guildmasters.org/dealing-with...nd-negativity/

Our raid group's main focus when bringing in a new recruit is whether or not they fit in with our community. If they are arrogant or toxic they do not last long with us. Just by preventing negative players from setting roots in our guild we've created a friendly atmosphere even in the midst of a night of wipes.

Since this is more out of your control and you need to play the hand you're dealt I would suggest that you let their negativity behave like water on a duck's back. Try your best to let it roll off your back. I know there can be a point where you feel saturated in their negativity and are left, as you've said, "sitting in my chair head in my hands just wanting someone to lighten the mood." It especially sucks when guild management fuels that toxic fire by saying things like "shape the fuck up."

For you personally, perhaps you are the beacon that others look to? You are known as the positive guy, and who knows maybe someone could come around. If you get another positive ally in the team, then maybe you two can bounce positive energy back and fourth to enhance the mood?

There will always be a bad night with any team. Try to recognize if this is an every-time occurrence or just once in a while. If it's more seldom you could just accept that your group had a bad night and you should take a little break for a few hours to enjoy a different game, or a movie, or another distraction.

Try not to let it fester. This means that you should make sure to be careful when talking to others about things you are upset about in the group. Acknowledging an issue and briefly explaining your concerns to an understanding ear is very helpful, but don't let the conversation last very long or occur very frequently. This tends to amplify your negative feelings about things.

If you want to address leadership regarding these issues you could suggest ways to improve the group such as:

• Have them set goals for raiders to meet (ie proving grounds, fully gemmed, etc.) As Slykz says: Ask them to set Min-Max requirements out to all raiders. Here's a great article regarding that: http://guildmasters.org/a-lesson-fro...e-france-team/ Basically if everyone does a little something to improve their performance it accumulates in the team to create an overall performance boost.
• Talk to them about the tone they are setting for the atmosphere. You are there to progress, but what is the point if everyone is upset over being yelled at, show aggression passively, and throw swears around at each other? Officers need to offer extrinsic and intrinsic motivation as a commodity to keep members cooperative and reliable. If they offer a sucky atmosphere that could be both upsetting your raiders and distracting your raiders by upsetting them. By being upset and distracted, raiders aren't getting a fun place, and they aren't getting progression. Boom there's two motivations gone.
• Suggest that they set a rule of "This is who talks" no one else should unless it's critical. Don't allow mic-ups for expressing displeasure.

Finally, you may hear this more than once, maybe you should try to find a new raid group? It is a raid team member's market out there. There are so many raid teams looking for a positive addition to their group and they are struggling to find new members. Recruiting is harder than ever right now and you might be just what someone is looking for. This is your happiness, this is a game, and if you want to be in an easier atmosphere to thrive in as a positive person you should consider greener pastures. (If you don't believe me, post in the battle.net recruitment forum that you are looking for a better fit. I bet you'll get some responses!)

Hopes this helps a little, sorry if I didn't make much sense.

[Dracodraco]

A raid night remains positive if you see progress. As for constant sub-5% wipes, that's just down to bad luck - as someone else mentioned previously, this is where you get everyone to focus on their own performance so you can push that extra 1% per person that secures a kill, instead of letting the downers get to people first. Get them hyped for optimizing.
On a long boss such as Maidens that'll take most guilds anywhere from 50 to 100 wipes and last ~10 minutes, you set goals for the raid. "Okay, we spent tonight learning how to handle blade dash, blood ritual and making sure we met the DPS check on the blood boat, good job guys". Next raid can be "we managed to get the CC-boat and the Interrupt-boat under control so we can do both 100% of the time, and how to deal with penetrating / convulsive shadows - good fucking job, we can start pushing for a kill now". Then comes the raid where you get all 3 boats done in succession, but wipe during the last burn because people haven't optimised for execute etc...

What I'm getting at, is that some bosses are long, and a lot of bosses will see you spending multiple wipe-nights on them. If you cut the encounters into bite-sizes and praise for each bite people take rather than staring sternly at them untill they've eaten the whole thing, people will feel better. Unless you're confident you can get any kind of progress in, don't try to feed people the entire tactic for an encounter such as Imperator in one go - make sure you handle P1 successfully a few times, then set up intermission interrupts, get intermission handled a few times, then discuss P2 tactics, etc... Boss fights are too complicated for the most part nowadays to take everything at once, and trying to do so in the name of saving time/wipes will lead to the exact opposite result.

As a side note, my guild is (just barely) within the top 100 world right now, and we spent 13 wipes to get our first Beastlord kill. 12 Wipes isn't entirely bad for that boss, it just seems like it because each close attempt takes upwards of 10 minutes.

[Nimalla]

I introduced one rule during my raid leading times that I was very strict on - if you want to complain, whine, sigh or do anything not related to the fight or raid, don't say it on vent.

During attempts you can banter (if no tactic changes take place), or give your opinion/view/ideas, but pointless sighing or swearing does not add any value to anyone. If you want to swear because it makes you feel better, fine, but don't do it on vent.

A very excellent rule.

[Deleted]

1-5% wipes weren't the issue for me, it was the constant wiping on a highly specific part of a fight (eg. Garrosh transitions) or simple early mechanics (eg. fire lines on Paragons) that did the worst for negativity.

[Deleted]

I bully gnomes.

It is important to make sure that you're discussing the reason for wipes rather than just chain pulling and getting nowhere. It will not only mean potentially fewer pulls before the kill but I think it puts you in a better frame of mind to think that you are at least moving forward.

[slime]

Switched to normal mode raiding only. Never looked back.

[Vargur]

A few that banters, and comes with jokes regardless of the wipes helps a lot. But you need somebody to be cheerfull enough for that too, to keep it going between you.

If they really need to vent they should take it private with RL and let him/her deal with it, instead of making it overall hostile. I guess sighing is hard to stop.. XD
A raid going depressed from sub 5% wipes and a 1% wipe, instead of going "we got this" seems a bit weak willed for what will come later.

What bullrog talks about works well too. Easy way to make things more fun.

Yeah, I would assume high percentage constant wipes would be much more depressing. Weird.

[Madlobster]

I don't know who you are raiding with, but if there is someone who is toxic for the entire raid, then maybe someone should talk to them about trying to be a little more positive.
It's easy to get mad, and its easy to have a bad day when you spend all of your free time wiping. But if someone is screwing up on tactics and so forth then yelling at them and cursing won't probably help said person, and the entire raid will be demoralized.

Keep encouraging people to do their best and push for that last %, when you get the boss down it will feel amazing