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  1. #101
    DP nerf could maybe have PVP implications? It hasn't been brought up.
    Regen#1804 need NA overwatch friends.

  2. #102
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    DP nerf could maybe have PVP implications? It hasn't been brought up.
    DP nerf has big implications for PvE and PvP. Mostly it just makes me sad though, and I want to imagine it doesn't exist and/or that it will go away. At the very least I need to understand their reasoning.
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  3. #103
    Sorry to try and bring the topic back on track since I know you all are enjoying discussing PTR notes, but I have some shadow questions.

    I have been a holy priest main for the last 10 years and it is my favorite. However, my raid team has recently found ourselves with to many healers (never happened before!) and on some fights, we just simply need 1 less healer. Of our 5 healers, I am definitely not the weakest but our weaker healers refuse to play DPS and we aren't hardcore enough to bench them so recently, I have been asked to go shadow for a few fights.

    All that to say, after 10 years of playing, I have never ever raided as shadow and now I have to learn.

    1) Is critical strike gear more important than haste+MS? (Example: Turret Mechanics Legwraps vs Sea Cursed Leggings)

    2) I read a guide a few months back talking about CoP so I have only been trying that play style. I find dot weaving a bit annoying but I think I sort of have the hang of it on single targets but have no idea on multi-targets. I see now that AS is probably the way to go but since I haven't been planning to go shadow, I currently only have 18.3% crit unbuffed. Is this enough to switch to AS or should I keep with CoP for a while?

    3) On the few farm bosses I have gone shadow (Heroic Gruul, H&F, and Maidens), my DPS has been around 25-29K which seems super low considering my 683 shadow gear. I'm guessing the problem must be not generating enough orbs. In CoP play, I am supposed to build to 5 orbs, do the dot-weaving cycle, then start over and build to 5 orbs again correct? There just seems to be a huge span of time in that rotation when I am just doing a whole lot of Mind Spike with occasional Mind Blast.

    4) The guide says that AS is better than CoP but then spends the rest of the guide explaining how to DoT weave with CoP without explaining how to maximize AS. Or do you dot weave with AS as well on single target fights?

    5) Assuming my crit is to low to play AS right now, how do I CoP on an add intense fight like Blast Furnace? Do I basically do the single target dot weaving rotation with substituting searing insanity for insanity and switching to SWD low targets? I was trying to do the single target rotation while keeping SWP on as many adds as I could instead of spamming Mind Spike the whole time but it resulted in about 24K DPS only.

    Assuming I should do AS on that sort of fight, I should maximize orb generation with Blast on my priority target, SWD off targets that are low, DP on my priority target, then fill with keeping SWP up on as many targets as I can? In AS style of play, should I ever prioritize searing insanity over SWP renewal?

    6) How do you play AS on an Iron Maidens type fight? Obviously Blast/Death are still priority as well as keeping SWP on all 3 maidens but what do I do to fill after that? Do I keep VT up on all of them or mind spike one of them? I would think MS shouldn't be used at all in AS play style cause you don't want to remove any SWP.

    7) In the chart above, why is CoP listed as the better talent for the Operator fight? That is a very AOE intense fight like Blast Furnace and I would like AS would be superior. I understand CoP for Gruul, Ore, and Blackhand.

    8) Do we have any burst damage I am missing? At the start of a fight, everyone blow's there CDs to maximize their damage with Mind Blast. As far as I can tell, assuming I don't have Power Infusion, the only CD we have is Shadowfiend and maybe a racial or trinket. Am I missing something?

    9) The guide says to not take Power Infusion. Shouldn't PI be more powerful on single target fights over Twisted Fate? On a fight like Gruul, you would have a wasted talent for 70% of the fight for a burst at the end. Same goes for any fight that doesn't frequently have low adds to hit. Wouldn't using PI 5 times on a 10 minute Iron Maidens fight be more beneficial than having TF for the final 35%?

    I am sure I will have more questions but for now, that should hold me over. Thanks for any help you can provide!

  4. #104
    1) Crit is really nice to have for AS, but to be honest BRF cloth gear has so much crit you'd have to be very unlucky not to have enough crit to perform well. Both crit and haste are well rounded stats for both AS and CoP, mastery is somewhat lackluster in comparison but it is not by any means a bad stat.
    2) You shouldn't play CoP for multitarget. 18% unbuffed is more than enough to play AS just fine.
    3) Your problem is most likely not casting Mind Blast on cooldown or losing shadow orbs. Proper dotweaving is a consistent but minor dps increase, you can even play plain CoP and perform decently.
    4) With BRF gear AS is superior for every multitarget fight, and can perform well on single target too, but it is much more subject to RNG than CoP. CoP is a more consistent spec for single target.
    5) Your crit is enough and you shouldn't ever play CoP on Blast Furnace. AS is particularly good for that fight.
    6) SWP + VT 100% uptime on all targets, DP to spend orbs maximizing your 4-set bonus uptime. All three l45 talents are viable for this fight.
    7) Operator isn't really that much of an AoE fight, it just has sporadic AoE burst events but it's single target for the most part.
    8) That's the way it is, yep.
    9) PI can be viable for short single target fights. The shorter the execute phase the better PI is compared to ToF. Not worth the hassle IMO though, since ToF works just fine on any current fight.
    Last edited by Dierdre; 2015-04-18 at 07:01 AM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    mastery is somewhat lackluster in comparison but it is not by any means a bad stat.
    I feel this needs some further explanation. Mastery is, in fact, one of the worst stats for us right now. For AS, it is *the* worst, below even Versatility. For CoP it's not that bad, but it *only* really works in EXCLUSIVE single-target scenarios with little movement. As soon as you can't cast your nukes on CD every time because reasons, Mastery drops in value. As there are only really two fights where that is the case (Gruul and Kromog; MAYBE Oregorger) it is usually a good idea to avoid Mastery. Even for CoP other stats are very close in value to Mastery, and for AS they are FAR above. For all intents and purposes, looking at the overall stat balance, yes, Mastery is a bad stat.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I feel this needs some further explanation. Mastery is, in fact, one of the worst stats for us right now. For AS, it is *the* worst, below even Versatility. For CoP it's not that bad, but it *only* really works in EXCLUSIVE single-target scenarios with little movement. As soon as you can't cast your nukes on CD every time because reasons, Mastery drops in value. As there are only really two fights where that is the case (Gruul and Kromog; MAYBE Oregorger) it is usually a good idea to avoid Mastery. Even for CoP other stats are very close in value to Mastery, and for AS they are FAR above. For all intents and purposes, looking at the overall stat balance, yes, Mastery is a bad stat.
    I meant exactly what I said. It's obviously better overall to get gear with crit and haste, but telling people to "avoid" mastery because it is a "bad" stat drives them to take misguided and very uninformed gearing choices, like rejecting 15 ilvl upgrades "because they have mastery". While mastery is comparatively less desirable than crit and haste, it does serve its purpose; it is not a "bad" stat. There is no such thing as a "bad" stat for shadow, not even versatility, which I hate with a passion.

    EDIT: I make emphasis on this point because "Should I equip this 700 ilvl instead of this 685 ilvl piece" is by far the most common question I'm asked.
    Last edited by Dierdre; 2015-04-18 at 05:35 PM.

  7. #107
    I understand your point, and I agree. The potential for misunderstanding is definitely there, but it's also there with your approach. Out of all the stats available to us on gear pieces, Mastery is the one you want the least. No that doesn't mean downgrading ilvls, but it does mean that within the same tier of gear, you will want to take anything but the pieces with Mastery.

    I guess the only solution to avoid misunderstandings in both directions is to expand more on the whole stat thing, or add a TL;DR of a sort with all the caveats and warning labels. I suppose neither solution is very elegant, and silly geese will find a way to mess it up anyway...

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    1) Crit is really nice to have for AS, but to be honest BRF cloth gear has so much crit you'd have to be very unlucky not to have enough crit to perform well. Both crit and haste are well rounded stats for both AS and CoP, mastery is somewhat lackluster in comparison but it is not by any means a bad stat.
    2) You shouldn't play CoP for multitarget. 18% unbuffed is more than enough to play AS just fine.
    3) Your problem is most likely not casting Mind Blast on cooldown or losing shadow orbs. Proper dotweaving is a consistent but minor dps increase, you can even play plain CoP and perform decently.
    4) With BRF gear AS is superior for every multitarget fight, and can perform well on single target too, but it is much more subject to RNG than CoP. CoP is a more consistent spec for single target.
    5) Your crit is enough and you shouldn't ever play CoP on Blast Furnace. AS is particularly good for that fight.
    6) SWP + VT 100% uptime on all targets, DP to spend orbs maximizing your 4-set bonus uptime. All three l45 talents are viable for this fight.
    7) Operator isn't really that much of an AoE fight, it just has sporadic AoE burst events but it's single target for the most part.
    8) That's the way it is, yep.
    9) PI can be viable for short single target fights. The shorter the execute phase the better PI is compared to ToF. Not worth the hassle IMO though, since ToF works just fine on any current fight.

    Thanks for answering my questions! I have a few follow up questions:

    1) What is the best addon to track SWP on multiple targets?
    2) Is it recommended to use a macro for DP? Set the priority target as my focus, then macro DP to cast at my focus so I can SWP off targets without having to switch back and forth?
    3) Since Mastery is so low for us, assuming they are the same item level, is it better to take a crit+mastery item or a haste+multistrike item?
    4) Is there ever a break point in number of adds where searing insanity takes priority over dot creation?
    5) How many targets are necessary to make searing insanity to preferred filler over regular insanity? (I.E. H&F and Maidens)
    6) For a mostly single target fight, like Flamebender, is my AS rotation MB, Halo, and Shadowfiend on CD; DP at 3 orbs; 100% uptime on SWP+VT; fill with Insanity? (Obviously wolves require 100% SWP uptime and SWD begins at 20%.)


    Thanks again!

  9. #109
    1) There are various, I use SPTimers as it's a spiritual successor to the old Forte Xorcist and was created by a Shadow Priest

    2) It's a good idea to macro many abilities. DoTs in particular can benefit a lot from things like mouseover/focus macros and nice raid frames, to make sure you can quickly and easily cast them on whichever targets needs them. It's especially important for AS on fights with multiple bosses, as you want to keep DoTs rolling with high uptimes.

    3) The exact values depend on your current gear setup, and the item in question. Unfortunately there is no blanket statement, as things like other potential items, the amount of ratings you already have etc. etc. change things around a lot. In general you want to avoid Mastery, that is true, but the EXACT values can vary from character to character, and it may mean a Mastery piece comes out on top. However, even if it does, chances are the difference is not that big.

    4) Yes, but it's difficult to determine. Since with AS your DoTs actually generate Orbs, and Searing Insanity costs Orbs, this is a somewhat complicated thing to properly model. Luckily this situation is basically 100% exclusive to trash mobs that die so quickly it's not worth DoTing them in the first place, so there's that (or mass adds in a boss fight, which should die even faster).

    5) The general consensus is 3 targets to use Searing Insanity over Mind Flay: Insanity. However, keep in mind that on fights with sustained 3+ targets like Maidens, you may not want to roll with Insanity because you run into GCD-capping issues. Especially during execute, it can be very hard to find free GCDs to cast Insanity at all, let alone channel it for some time. You may be better off running SoD or Mindbender instead.

    6) That's pretty much correct. One thing to add though is that you don't want to just fire off DP as soon as you reach 3 Orbs if you have access to the 4pc tier set bonus. You will want to juggle your incoming Orbs in a way that prevents capping, but casts DPs conservatively so that you maintain a high uptime on the full 4pc bonus stacks. Also, it is wise to delay the last use of Shadowfiend until you have a nice array of buffs/procs, e.g. potion, ToF, trinket procs, etc. Of course, only delay if you know you wouldn't get another use of SF in if you fired it immediately.

  10. #110
    Deleted
    Also, it is wise to delay the last use of Shadowfiend until you have a nice array of buffs/procs, e.g. potion, ToF, trinket procs
    shadowfiend/mindbender doesn't benefit from twist of fate. Pets don't benefit from flat damage increasing buffs on the player, only stat increases.

  11. #111
    Well isn't that annoying. Oh well, good to know. Gods know WHY that is, though.

  12. #112
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Good questions and answers guys! I'm going to put some of them in the FAQ section


    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    6) That's pretty much correct. One thing to add though is that you don't want to just fire off DP as soon as you reach 3 Orbs if you have access to the 4pc tier set bonus. You will want to juggle your incoming Orbs in a way that prevents capping, but casts DPs conservatively so that you maintain a high uptime on the full 4pc bonus stacks. Also, it is wise to delay the last use of Shadowfiend until you have a nice array of buffs/procs, e.g. potion, ToF, trinket procs, etc. Of course, only delay if you know you wouldn't get another use of SF in if you fired it immediately.
    On this note, I recommend casting DP at 4 Orbs. There is a weak aura I should add to the guide for tracking incoming AS Orb generation, but the problem is the mere risk of casting Mind Blast (or Death) and generating a fifth orb - while also gaining a fifth orb (or a double orb!) from AS is so detrimental that it isn't worth risking the 5 orb cap to optimize 4p uptime. The 4p uptime is great, managing it is the key to mastering AS DPS (and it's why crit is just so delicious) - but losing an Orb is an unacceptable risk.

    A semi-related tip: If your 4p bonus drops off, it's also worth building to 4+ orbs again before reapplying, so that you are more likely to get your next DP in time to refresh the 4p stack.


    Quote Originally Posted by bushkanaka86 View Post
    4) The guide says that AS is better than CoP but then spends the rest of the guide explaining how to DoT weave with CoP without explaining how to maximize AS. Or do you dot weave with AS as well on single target fights?
    DOTweaving is hard to explain to initiates and so requires a lengthy and detailed explanation: it's also only worthwhile if performed correctly, which makes it doubly important to convey the per-GCD sequencing. Auspicious Spirits is relatively straightforward to explain "Orbs are Love. Orbs are Life.", a simple rule that nevertheless is more interesting and fun to play.

    Honestly, I'm tempted to just say "If you are raiding normal BRF and above, take AS and never look back" - and while I know that would draw the ire of some of my readers (and they would be justified, because it isn't correct, CoP can be better sometimes) - but the benefit is everyones life would be more enjoyable: nobody ever wiped to a normal or heroic boss due to the benefit of CoP over AS.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2015-04-19 at 03:03 AM.
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  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    1) There are various, I use SPTimers as it's a spiritual successor to the old Forte Xorcist and was created by a Shadow Priest
    Hmm, I'm not sure this is quite what I wanted. It does indeed track all my dots, but it puts them in a giant list that I don't have time to read when I am raiding. I would rather see a clickable health frame of every boss/add alive and an icon beside it showing if there is a SWP on them or not. Then I just click the health frame, hit the hotkey, and do the next one.

  14. #114
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bushkanaka86 View Post
    Hmm, I'm not sure this is quite what I wanted. It does indeed track all my dots, but it puts them in a giant list that I don't have time to read when I am raiding. I would rather see a clickable health frame of every boss/add alive and an icon beside it showing if there is a SWP on them or not. Then I just click the health frame, hit the hotkey, and do the next one.
    Shadowed Unit Frames, look at the image in the guide on page 1. On the right side is a boss frame for each boss and important add, including DoT timers for each of them
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  15. #115
    Tidy Plates also displays your dots on every unit's frame. I use SUF + Tidy Plates.
    Last edited by Dierdre; 2015-04-19 at 04:56 AM.

  16. #116
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Ya I used to use Tidy Plates too, but then in my pursuit of an ever-cleaner UI I cut them. Still, if you aren't an obsessive UI minimalist, TidyPlates is a great addon
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  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by bushkanaka86 View Post
    Hmm, I'm not sure this is quite what I wanted. It does indeed track all my dots, but it puts them in a giant list that I don't have time to read when I am raiding. I would rather see a clickable health frame of every boss/add alive and an icon beside it showing if there is a SWP on them or not. Then I just click the health frame, hit the hotkey, and do the next one.
    SPTimers is HIGHLY configurable. I actually disable a lot of things to focus only on the relevant stuff, and I also split it into several lists for current target/off targets so I don't get confused.

    Boss frames are great for tracking debuffs, and I use SUF in addition to SPTimers for that purpose. I have them in the middle bottom of my screen, so I can easily see which boss has what effect on them, and for how long. Combined with mouseover macros, it makes it very easy to quickly DoT up targets as needed.

    However, these frames don't show everything. They show bosses, and many relevant adds (Primal Elementalists on Furnace for example) but there's also things they don't show. To make sure I manage DoTs on these, I refer to my SPTimer, and TidyPlates overhead DoT icons. Really no chance to miss anything that way!

  18. #118
    Those weakauras in the OP still can't be copy/pasted. Can you please fix them? I really want the BRF one.

  19. #119
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    Any tips for Kromog Mythic?
    Is it worth to put some mastery gear/gems/enchant cuz of CoP talent?
    Thx

  20. #120
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    The more important times in the fight are helped most by crit gear.
    Aoe on the hands crit beats mastery.
    Dotting up all 3 pillars crit will be better than mastery.
    And during execute crit is better than mastery.
    So I wouldn't recommend going for mastery

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