1. #1
    Field Marshal Steve Drive's Avatar
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    New to sub and seeking improvement

    I'll begin playing my rogue more seriously soon and will be trying my best to play sub. I'm looking for critique and suggestions for improving and maximizing my damage.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ction/advanced

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...hj3MyB#fight=1

    I'm pretty comfortable with combat already, I'd like the focus of this thread to be on the fights I played as subtlety: Gruul, Oregorger, Hans and Franz, Flamebender, Kromogg, Blast Furnace, and even though we didn't kill it here, Blackhand. In particular kromogg (hand phase) and blast furnace I feel I am struggling a lot with maximizing my damage with a large number of targets. In kromogg although the phase is brief, would I be better off going combat for this encounter? For heroic my guild does not have trouble breaking people out of the hands, but what can I do better as sub during this phase? Blast Furnace however my guild does sometimes struggle getting the primal elementalists down in 1 shield on heroic difficulty which is why I chose sub for this fight on normal. Does combat perform similarly during the elementalists burn phases that I can get away with using it for the entire fight? If i were to stick with sub for blast furnace, how can I best handle the situations with several adds up?

    I'm sure my single target performance could use quite a lot of help as well.

    I know my gear is not optimally gemmed/enchanted yet as I did not want to invest much in an alt who I haven't been that serious with. I will fix it though.

    Thanks for reading and I will appreciate any feedback I can get! (Also I'm still kind of new to melee so I'm still working on practicing my positioning, ugh backstab)

  2. #2
    I finally got daggers and I am learning sub aswell, I compared your gruul kill to my heroic kill this week, they were similar times which is nice.
    I noticed that you only used 1 Agility potion, so either you missed the pre-pot, or you forgot to use it again during the fight.
    I also noticed I got 1 more premed off than you, I am guessing that is either pre-pull or during a vanish.
    Your find weakness was 36% compared to my 45%. No idea here honestly, I am still learning as well, i think we are both low.
    Your rupture and SND uptime are 93% and 99% respectively which seems great. My rupture was only 85% with a couple large gaps.
    I am curious what you are doing for your opener, because it looks like you didnt rupture very quickly at the opening which could be a dps increase.
    Hopefully someone chimes in with some advice, Here are my logs I was comparing, just the gruul fight.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...mmary&source=4

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Drive View Post
    In particular kromogg (hand phase) and blast furnace I feel I am struggling a lot with maximizing my damage with a large number of targets. In kromogg although the phase is brief, would I be better off going combat for this encounter? For heroic my guild does not have trouble breaking people out of the hands, but what can I do better as sub during this phase? Blast Furnace however my guild does sometimes struggle getting the primal elementalists down in 1 shield on heroic difficulty which is why I chose sub for this fight on normal. Does combat perform similarly during the elementalists burn phases that I can get away with using it for the entire fight? If i were to stick with sub for blast furnace, how can I best handle the situations with several adds up?

    I'm sure my single target performance could use quite a lot of help as well.
    Sorry I missed these in my first post.
    Hands, are brief, most of Kromogg is single target, I found better performance with Sub. During hands, I usually FoK once, 10 combos, CT, Rupture myhand, FoK, evisc evisc, I am basically doing that for blast furnace except maximizing my single target on the priority targets. So bellows is out, I open with normal single target, then use FoK as combo builder for most of the fight, Feldspar is on my side so I throw rupture on him, and extra guards if I can, while keeping CT up on all and using FoK as a combo builder. I switch to Rupture, Evisc for bellows and Primals. Still using FoK for combo points. In my experience Combat doesnt really work great for Blast Furnace, because you don't have a CD every time for the Primals. For Subt I pretty much always had a Dance up for each Primal, and our group had plenty of AOE already.

  3. #3
    1. Use 2 potions if you really want to max your damage. One 2-3 seconds before the pull and another when your SR+SD comes back up, or when mechanics call for it.
    2. You only have 1 subterfuge the entire fight. That means that you don't use glyph of vanish to proc a second subterfuge. Basically what happenes is glyph of vanish increases the duration of vanish. When you vanish subterfuge procs for 3 seconds, once that ends the additional time added to your vanish will allow you to proc another subterfuge. So before vanish you should pool to 100energy. Once there you can vanish and get 2 ambushes off in the first subterfuge, wait for that to end and attack, proc another subterfuge and get a 3rd ambush off a second before that subterfuge end.

    Only getting one subterfuge also tells me you did not use Vanish. That is why your find weakness uptime is so low. You should be using vanish as a dps cooldown, because it is. Also remember prep can be used to reset the cooldown of your vanish. On a 3:20 sec fight you should have been able to get off 3 vanishes.

    3. Why did you use kidney shot in your opener?

    4. You take so long to pop your SD + SR on your opener. By that point most of your buffs/trinket procs are gone and you've lost a big opportunity for damage. You want to use Premed 10 seconds before the pull and then SnD 3 seconds before the pull. This will allow you to start the fight with SnD and full energy. At this point how you open is debatable. Some people like to use garrote - ambush -ambush. This is only really viable if you have the 2 set and can get back 60 energy when you use SD. Ambush - hemo - wait a second for HaT proc - SR - Rupture - SD is a pretty good opener without the 2 set. This will let you open within 5 seconds and really put in some decent burst damage.

    5. You use the correct glyph to allow hemo to proc your sanguinary veins, but don't use hemo to fill in gaps in your rupture. Aside from taking too long to apply your first rupture, you should have used hemo to fill in that gap. You do a good job of keeping rupture up after the opener.

    6. Enchant your gear. You are missing out on 275 multistrike right now. If you don't want to spend alot on your alt, just keep the cheap enchants. Its 400 gold for 200 multistrike.
    Last edited by Skarzog; 2015-03-20 at 08:31 PM.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Steve Drive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaif View Post
    I am curious what you are doing for your opener, because it looks like you didnt rupture very quickly at the opening which could be a dps increase.
    As someone pointed out, I must have accidentally used Kidney Shot in my opener on Gruul, but for all other fights my opener is:

    1) -5 seconds, premed, snd
    2) -2 seconds, prepot
    3) 0 seconds, garrote
    4) ambushx2
    5) wait for HaT proc
    6) shadow reflection into rupture
    7) shadow dance

    Also thanks for your advice on Kromogg and Blast Furnace, that was just what I was looking for! And grats on finally getting daggers!

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarzog View Post
    1. Use 2 potions if you really want to max your damage. One 2-3 seconds before the pull and another when your SR+SD comes back up, or when mechanics call for it.
    2. You only have 1 subterfuge the entire fight. That means that you don't use glyph of vanish to proc a second subterfuge. Basically what happenes is glyph of vanish increases the duration of vanish. When you vanish subterfuge procs for 3 seconds, once that ends the additional time added to your vanish will allow you to proc another subterfuge. So before vanish you should pool to 100energy. Once there you can vanish and get 2 ambushes off in the first subterfuge, wait for that to end and attack, proc another subterfuge and get a 3rd ambush off a second before that subterfuge end.

    Only getting one subterfuge also tells me you did not use Vanish. That is why your find weakness uptime is so low. You should be using vanish as a dps cooldown, because it is. Also remember prep can be used to reset the cooldown of your vanish. On a 3:20 sec fight you should have been able to get off 3 vanishes.

    3. Why did you use kidney shot in your opener?

    4. You take so long to pop your SD + SR on your opener. By that point most of your buffs/trinket procs are gone and you've lost a big opportunity for damage. You want to use Premed 10 seconds before the pull and then SnD 3 seconds before the pull. This will allow you to start the fight with SnD and full energy. At this point how you open is debatable. Some people like to use garrote - ambush -ambush. This is only really viable if you have the 2 set and can get back 60 energy when you use SD. Ambush - hemo - wait a second for HaT proc - SR - Rupture - SD is a pretty good opener without the 2 set. This will let you open within 5 seconds and really put in some decent burst damage.

    5. You use the correct glyph to allow hemo to proc your sanguinary veins, but don't use hemo to fill in gaps in your rupture. Aside from taking too long to apply your first rupture, you should have used hemo to fill in that gap. You do a good job of keeping rupture up after the opener.

    6. Enchant your gear. You are missing out on 275 multistrike right now. If you don't want to spend alot on your alt, just keep the cheap enchants. Its 400 gold for 200 multistrike.
    Thank you for the response, especially the recommendation for glyph of vanish and my opener, this should be a great help to my performance. And yeah I haven't had much practice and I think I hit kidney shot instead of garrote in my opener haha. I also really wasn't sure when to use my second pot during the fight so often just forgot about it, thanks for pointing that out.

    On the opener you suggested since I don't have my 2-piece bonus, wouldn't an ambush -> hemo -> HaT proc put me at 4 combo points? Or did you mean I should ambush -> hemox2 -> HaT proc? Or ambush -> hemo -> HaT proc into SR + Rupture at 4 combo points?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Drive View Post
    As someone pointed out, I must have accidentally used Kidney Shot in my opener on Gruul, but for all other fights my opener is:

    1) -5 seconds, premed, snd
    2) -2 seconds, prepot
    3) 0 seconds, garrote
    4) ambushx2
    5) wait for HaT proc
    6) shadow reflection into rupture
    7) shadow dance

    Also thanks for your advice on Kromogg and Blast Furnace, that was just what I was looking for! And grats on finally getting daggers!



    Thank you for the response, especially the recommendation for glyph of vanish and my opener, this should be a great help to my performance. And yeah I haven't had much practice and I think I hit kidney shot instead of garrote in my opener haha. I also really wasn't sure when to use my second pot during the fight so often just forgot about it, thanks for pointing that out.

    On the opener you suggested since I don't have my 2-piece bonus, wouldn't an ambush -> hemo -> HaT proc put me at 4 combo points? Or did you mean I should ambush -> hemox2 -> HaT proc? Or ambush -> hemo -> HaT proc into SR + Rupture at 4 combo points?
    You should hopefully be able to get a hat proc during your first 2 gcd's and then wait for the second one for about a second or so. If you have extremely bad luck using a 4 point Rupture, while no optimal, is better than delaying SR and SD. Basically you want to get SnD and Rupture up as quickly as possible and enter SD as soon as possible so you benefit from Master of Sub and your trinket procs.

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