Question about Disc Stat priority

[Deleted]

you guys forgetting about divine aegis? haste looks good in "paper" but it only make you to spam harder.. no really benefit in the PW:S, and thats 60% +/- of our healing... am i right?

[kheath812]

you guys forgetting about divine aegis? haste looks good in "paper" but it only make you to spam harder.. no really benefit in the PW:S, and thats 60% +/- of our healing... am i right?

the benefit to pws is it lets you get to 1s gcd which lets you pws more. after that its only a benefit to mindbender. its still better than crit because its a better throughput increase.

[Deleted]

Int>Mas>Cri End of story. I have haste build and my mana was gone superfast and I have ilvl 688 with max spirit possible. I have also never lost to a haste disc ever, which says it all.

[Zlebar]

Int>Mas>Cri End of story. I have haste build and my mana was gone superfast and I have ilvl 688 with max spirit possible. I have also never lost to a haste disc ever, which says it all.

For the record, people like this, you generally try to avoid their advice. "NO ONE EVAR BEATS ME ON METERS THERFOR I AM BEST, DO WAT I SAY"- is not a valid argument.

Typically you can only have as much haste as your mana allows, it is a throughput stat, but I would advise against weighing it a large amount just because you will run into mana issues. Looking for an amount of haste that makes you comfortable is what I would do instead.

Haste is really good on fights with a lot of different things to heal, but is generally poorer on fights where you have lots of down time and find yourself tank healing a lot, and with 4 piece it gets even better(because you have extra mana).

[PosPosPos]

Int>Mas>Cri End of story. I have haste build and my mana was gone superfast and I have ilvl 688 with max spirit possible. I have also never lost to a haste disc ever, which says it all.

Crit isn't the 3rd best stat even if Haste wasn't in the running. Someone obviously doesn't know Multistrike exists.

- - - Updated - - -

Haste is really good on fights with a lot of different things to heal, but is generally poorer on fights where you have lots of down time and find yourself tank healing a lot, and with 4 piece it gets even better(because you have extra mana).

Actually, Haste is fantastic for tank healing and not as much(but still fantastic enough) when you are running WoM.

You want to spend as little time casting CoW as possible so you can spend more time avoiding mechanics.

PW:S blanketing OOMs you very quickly with high haste, so mana longevity builds tend to favor this playstyle slightly more than the haste builds.

[Overdispersion]

My latest spreadsheets show that crit>ms with solace when about 20% of our healing comes from Penance/ProM/Cascade and crit is so much more valued for those spells than ms. Don't think calling crit>ms is too far-fetched tbh.

[PosPosPos]

My latest spreadsheets show that crit>ms with solace when about 20% of our healing comes from Penance/ProM/Cascade and crit is so much more valued for those spells than ms. Don't think calling crit>ms is too far-fetched tbh.

Crit is merely ~5% more valued than MS for those spells.

If you completely omit EAA PoH from your toolkit, which I heartily laugh at, then yes, Crit is marginally better.

[Overdispersion]

Crit is merely ~5% more valued than MS for those spells.

If you completely omit EAA PoH from your toolkit, which I heartily laugh at, then yes, Crit is marginally better.

Am I drunk or don't these numbers show crit as 0.89 and ms as 0.55?

oops, forgot link to mylliors spreadheets.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1C...pZc19WQ00/view

[PosPosPos]

Am I drunk or don't these numbers show crit as 0.89 and ms as 0.55?

oops, forgot link to mylliors spreadheets.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1C...pZc19WQ00/view

Sorry, forgot about the DA interaction with crit versus MS. Either way point still stands - when you factor in the overall picture, Crit is still only marginally better - in a very niche circumstance. MS doesn't require all the stars to line up in order to perform at its optimal level.

Also, there really isn't a point to using Solace unless you want to restrict yourself to defensive Penance casts. Mindbender has significantly better regen + need for lesser GCDs.

[Deleted]

Sorry, forgot about the DA interaction with crit versus MS. Either way point still stands - when you factor in the overall picture, Crit is still only marginally better - in a very niche circumstance. MS doesn't require all the stars to line up in order to perform at its optimal level.

Also, there really isn't a point to using Solace unless you want to restrict yourself to defensive Penance casts. Mindbender has significantly better regen + need for lesser GCDs.

Dont trust your sheets to much, test it in real raids. I did both, and difference is very very obvious. CRIT>HASTE all day long every week in the year.
Looking good on paper is not same as actually beeing better.
Also saying Im doing this and that doesnt mean you are telling the truth. As I said Before, for the people who want to see which stats is WAY more superior they only need to have 2 different sets. 1 with haste and 1 with crit. The results will speak for them self so we dont need to argue here as a bunch of kids any more.

[Overdispersion]

Sorry, forgot about the DA interaction with crit versus MS. Either way point still stands - when you factor in the overall picture, Crit is still only marginally better - in a very niche circumstance. MS doesn't require all the stars to line up in order to perform at its optimal level.

Also, there really isn't a point to using Solace unless you want to restrict yourself to defensive Penance casts. Mindbender has significantly better regen + need for lesser GCDs.

I'm starting to use MB, just don't have enough logs to do a stat weights sheet yet for MB. That's why I said it's for solace .

[Myllior]

Typically you can only have as much haste as your mana allows, it is a throughput stat, but I would advise against weighing it a large amount just because you will run into mana issues.Looking for an amount of haste that makes you comfortable is what I would do instead.

Bingo.

Regarding the later posts with Critical Strike, I tend to find that, as an extremely rough approximation, every percentage of pre-secondary healing that comes from Empowered spells reduces Critical Strike's weight by ~0.01. However, due to Divine Aegis, even the most die-hard PW:S spammer and EAA user will want more Critical Strike rating than Multistrike rating, it's just figuring out where the cross-over is which is the issue. For instance, in the spreadsheet linked above, for which a Mythic Gruul log was analysed, the Priest want more Critical Strike rating than Multistrike rating even from the start, due to the use of non-EAA PoH and the higher effectiveness of Divine Aegis relative to the spells producing it, and also being very close in effectiveness to PW:S. In the second spreadsheet (found in the thread itself), a Mythic Blast Furnace log is examined, for which no non-EAA PoH were cast and for which the effective of Divine Aegis is lower, relative to spells producing it and to PW:S, when compared to the first spreadsheet. In this instance, the Priest wants a bit more Multistrike rating until they have ~5200 non-Haste secondary stats, at which point Critical Strike begins to take over.

It's reminiscent of how Divine Aegis works; at low availability of secondary stats, Critical Strike is preferable, but due to how well Divine Aegis scales with Mastery, Critical Strike is eventually overtaken by Mastery as more secondary stats are available. We probably would have seen this when transitioning from Throne of Thunder to Siege of Orgrimmar, except that all that Mastery gear in SoO threw things out of balance.

So while Multistrike was superior to Critical Strike in Highmaul, the increase in available secondaries in Blackrock Foundry means that they become more competitive with one another, with the way you heal perhaps being the most important factor. In the next tier, how you heal will still be extremely important, but it's entirely possible that Critical Strike will begin to edge ahead regardless.

[PosPosPos]

Dont trust your sheets to much, test it in real raids. I did both, and difference is very very obvious. CRIT>HASTE all day long every week in the year.
Looking good on paper is not same as actually beeing better.
Also saying Im doing this and that doesnt mean you are telling the truth. As I said Before, for the people who want to see which stats is WAY more superior they only need to have 2 different sets. 1 with haste and 1 with crit. The results will speak for them self so we dont need to argue here as a bunch of kids any more.

.....why do you think that just because someone disagrees with you means he/she hasn't actually tested it in "real raids"?

I don't have crippling mana issues with 20% haste in raids after BT goes up, so I don't honestly see why I need you to tell me whether I have insufficient mana or otherwise with my current setup.

- - - Updated - - -

Bingo.

Regarding the later posts with Critical Strike, I tend to find that, as an extremely rough approximation, every percentage of pre-secondary healing that comes from Empowered spells reduces Critical Strike's weight by ~0.01. However, due to Divine Aegis, even the most die-hard PW:S spammer and EAA user will want more Critical Strike rating than Multistrike rating, it's just figuring out where the cross-over is which is the issue. For instance, in the spreadsheet linked above, for which a Mythic Gruul log was analysed, the Priest want more Critical Strike rating than Multistrike rating even from the start, due to the use of non-EAA PoH and the higher effectiveness of Divine Aegis relative to the spells producing it, and also being very close in effectiveness to PW:S. In the second spreadsheet (found in the thread itself), a Mythic Blast Furnace log is examined, for which no non-EAA PoH were cast and for which the effective of Divine Aegis is lower, relative to spells producing it and to PW:S, when compared to the first spreadsheet. In this instance, the Priest wants a bit more Multistrike rating until they have ~5200 non-Haste secondary stats, at which point Critical Strike begins to take over.

It's reminiscent of how Divine Aegis works; at low availability of secondary stats, Critical Strike is preferable, but due to how well Divine Aegis scales with Mastery, Critical Strike is eventually overtaken by Mastery as more secondary stats are available. We probably would have seen this when transitioning from Throne of Thunder to Siege of Orgrimmar, except that all that Mastery gear in SoO threw things out of balance.

So while Multistrike was superior to Critical Strike in Highmaul, the increase in available secondaries in Blackrock Foundry means that they become more competitive with one another, with the way you heal perhaps being the most important factor. In the next tier, how you heal will still be extremely important, but it's entirely possible that Critical Strike will begin to edge ahead regardless.

Actually, if you noticed, the people who find that Crit outperforms Multistrike are the same people who underheal to parse. They are the same people whose defensive Penance, Divine Aegis and Cascade have ridiculously low overhealing ratios(which in turn inflates the value of crit over MS).

[Deleted]

Actually, if you noticed, the people who find that Crit outperforms Multistrike are the same people who underheal to parse. They are the same people whose defensive Penance, Divine Aegis and Cascade have ridiculously low overhealing ratios(which in turn inflates the value of crit over MS).

Actually i noticed that you are good on papers but bad in reality testing. Haste is worse then crit because there are only so much spirit you can have. On a fight like furnace as an example where you really need to be carefull with mana you cant just haste your way through it. Haste would be good IF we had more spirit gear. I have never been outperformed by haste disc.. ever! Haste disc with higher ilvls are no problem for me to handle. I base my opinion on the experience I have from raiding and not on some papers. Do me a favour, find a skilled mastery/crit disc with same ilvl as your self and then just go at it, you will see in the start you will top meter just to also see that after roughly half way through the fight you will be outnumbered totally. You wont be even Close at the end.

I am wrong? Ok, do the test and see you self.

[PosPosPos]

Actually i noticed that you are good on papers but bad in reality testing. Haste is worse then crit because there are only so much spirit you can have. On a fight like furnace as an example where you really need to be carefull with mana you cant just haste your way through it. Haste would be good IF we had more spirit gear. I have never been outperformed by haste disc.. ever! Haste disc with higher ilvls are no problem for me to handle. I base my opinion on the experience I have from raiding and not on some papers. Do me a favour, find a skilled mastery/crit disc with same ilvl as your self and then just go at it, you will see in the start you will top meter just to also see that after roughly half way through the fight you will be outnumbered totally. You wont be even Close at the end.

I am wrong? Ok, do the test and see you self.

You do realize that at least half of the top 10 discs in WCL run ~20% haste raid buffed with Borrowed Time? But keep deluding yourself.

Come back with top 10 parses with your low haste build, then we can talk.

Edit:

Rank 1 disc: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tlana/advanced

796 haste, but has spirit trinket with haste proc worth 291 haste, for a total of 1087 haste. Enough to make an average of >20% haste in raids with Borrowed Time

Rank 2 disc: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%AD/advanced

774 haste, slightly under the 20% haste breakpoint

Rank 3 disc: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...A1rva/advanced

680 haste, again slightly under the 20% haste breakpoint

Rank 5 disc: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...orfie/advanced

1180 haste, has Shards of Nothing worth 294 haste, for a total of 1471 haste. More than enough to hit >20% haste in raids with Borrowed Time even without using the trinket.

Rank 7 disc: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...picie/advanced

1171 haste. More than enough to hit >20% haste in raids with Borrowed Time.

Rank 8 disc: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...3%AEn/advanced

657 haste, again, slightly under the 20% haste breakpoint.

Rank 10 disc: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...elody/advanced

1191 haste. More than enough to hit >20% haste in raids with Borrowed Time.


So 7 out of the top 10 disc priests have ~20% haste raid buffed with Borrowed Time. Your move?

[Deleted]

Actually i noticed that you are good on papers but bad in reality testing. Haste is worse then crit because there are only so much spirit you can have. On a fight like furnace as an example where you really need to be carefull with mana you cant just haste your way through it. Haste would be good IF we had more spirit gear. I have never been outperformed by haste disc.. ever! Haste disc with higher ilvls are no problem for me to handle. I base my opinion on the experience I have from raiding and not on some papers. Do me a favour, find a skilled mastery/crit disc with same ilvl as your self and then just go at it, you will see in the start you will top meter just to also see that after roughly half way through the fight you will be outnumbered totally. You wont be even Close at the end.

I am wrong? Ok, do the test and see you self.

I ran our last Blast Furnace Mythic kill with a single regen trinket and only spirit on my legendary ring, I prefer haste over crit. My mana was more than fine.

[jstefanop]

Also, there really isn't a point to using Solace unless you want to restrict yourself to defensive Penance casts. Mindbender has significantly better regen + need for lesser GCDs.

I thought Solace had better mana regen if always cast on CD...either way you still need solace or smite to 5 stack AA, so even if your running MB you will still need to cast smite.

I don't see how MB could possibly be better unless your don't plan to 5 stack which there is no reason why you wouldn't.

[Deleted]

I thought Solace had better mana regen if always cast on CD...either way you still need solace or smite to 5 stack AA, so even if your running MB you will still need to cast smite.

I don't see how MB could possibly be better unless your don't plan to 5 stack which there is no reason why you wouldn't.

Cause they buffed it, it scales with haste.

There is a calculation for it somewhere in this forum. I post it when i find it.

Edit: Here -
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...6#post32456436

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ght=mindbender

[Zlebar]

I thought Solace had better mana regen if always cast on CD...either way you still need solace or smite to 5 stack AA, so even if your running MB you will still need to cast smite.

I don't see how MB could possibly be better unless your don't plan to 5 stack which there is no reason why you wouldn't.

because offensive penance generates stacks, so you literally only have to use 3 globals to generate 5 stacks. So that saves you 10 globals throughout the fight(at least, typically it's closer to 16-20, which when used on PWShield, is another 1-1.5m in healing). Not to mention MB scales with haste so when you pop it with PI it generates more mana than Solace does on CD. Plus if you use haste trinkets you can get even more mana out of MB. It really is better by quite a margin. I run chew toy, a spirit cloak, a spirit ring, and that is all of the mana gear that I use, currently raiding mythic and having no mana problems. On 8+ minute fights im typically near the end of my pool, which is right where I want to be.

[MDWiemann]

Well said, I would say to the person you quoted show me the logs. I run haste heavy gear but at 699 ilvl. I am ranked 31 on all stars overall. I would honestly say that it doesn't matter in the least bit if you have 100 mastery and a hoice of whatever for 2nd stat. Your biggest downfal in numbers will ALWAYS be playstule and after you perfect that, the 1% difference may... MAY matter. I have ~19% haste raid buffed chew toy and oregorger trinkets and I rotate 2p and 4p as well as crit and spirit weapon enchant depending on the fight. Maybe I will make a guide soon on talent gear and stat priorities per boss in mythic and heroic.

Also I will include in that guide how to use Mylanar's spreadsheet combod with Pawn addon to easily assess gear upgrades.

For the record, people like this, you generally try to avoid their advice. "NO ONE EVAR BEATS ME ON METERS THERFOR I AM BEST, DO WAT I SAY"- is not a valid argument.

Typically you can only have as much haste as your mana allows, it is a throughput stat, but I would advise against weighing it a large amount just because you will run into mana issues. Looking for an amount of haste that makes you comfortable is what I would do instead.

Haste is really good on fights with a lot of different things to heal, but is generally poorer on fights where you have lots of down time and find yourself tank healing a lot, and with 4 piece it gets even better(because you have extra mana).