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  1. #41
    a whole lot of whining here culminating in "warriors should be more like paladins!"

    i for one do not want my class to be turned into paladin

    Warriors don't need more absorbs and healing to be competitive. The biggest problem Warrior tanks face is that a lot of healers have become accustomed to healing classes like Paladin or Druid which have much greater margins for error.

    When you take good warrior parses for BRF fights and compare them to Paladins the gross numbers on mitigation really don't come out that different. Warriors don't do much healing or absorb, but they also take way less damage. Paladins take more damage but they offset it with some absorbs and heals.

    Paladins have an edge though because the simple fact is when something like a big Gruul inferno slice happens, Paladins generally have the ability to take their survival into their own hands and pop a heal to give healers time to adjust. This is much more evident with DKs, where a DK will be slam dunked by a boss, but immediately be able to Blood Strike their way back up to like 40% or whatever.

    I think healers get very accustomed to this, and they forget that when Warrior HP goes down, it's basically staying there until they do something about it. Yes we have a 1 minute heal, but it's nowhere near what many classes get.

    I don't think Warriors need any new mechanic or any one specific ability needs to get buffed. What I would like to see is just a very modest across the board buff to mitigation so that Warriors seem like an appealing tank option as opposed to "basically equal to Paladin but with all sorts of passive downsides". Our mobility and our on-demand blocking just doesn't come into play often enough for a sub-mythic guild to invest their progression in having one be the main tank

  2. #42
    Deleted
    I see that our main problem, which is the strong dependency in externals, is the effect of two poor designed (at least in comparison with other tanks) abilities, namely: Last Stand and Demoralizing Shout.

    Firstly, Last Stand, as the name suggests, should be our "oh shit button", the ability should have a killing blow avoidance, where the warrior instead of dying would kneel down with his shield in front of him, and be stunned for 1.5 sec but also receive an absorbing shield for 20% of his HP. Thus, the tooltip would be: 3 min cooldown. Increase current and maximum health by 30% for 10 sec (instead of 15 sec). While Last Stand is active, the next attack that would otherwise kill you will instead cause you to be stunned for 1.5 sec and receive an absorbing shield for 20% of your current HP. This effect may only occur every 3 min.

    Secondly, concerning Demoralizing Shout, it has a long duration and does little to avoid constant spike abilities. Therefore, it should be the following tooltip: 30 sec cooldown (instead of 1 min). Decrease the damage all enemies do to you by 25% (no 10 yards requirement) for 4 sec (instead of 8 sec).

    BrF Bosses abilities that require externals are normally one hit, e.g. Gruul's Inferno Slice, Hans/Franz's Crippling Supplex, Oregorger's Acid Torrent, Blackhand Smash. We don't need a buff like demoralizing shout that last too long (currently 8 sec) and also have 1 min cooldown, for this purpose we got Shield Wall. A shorter cooldown with a shorter duration is preferable. Moreover, the proposed Last Stand would give us a margin of error, the same as other tanks, like Ardent Defender and Purgatory.
    Last edited by mmoc1ab249d5e5; 2015-04-01 at 12:23 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasc View Post
    a whole lot of whining here culminating in "warriors should be more like paladins!"

    i for one do not want my class to be turned into paladin

    I don't think Warriors need any new mechanic or any one specific ability needs to get buffed. What I would like to see is just a very modest across the board buff to mitigation so that Warriors seem like an appealing tank option as opposed to "basically equal to Paladin but with all sorts of passive downsides". Our mobility and our on-demand blocking just doesn't come into play often enough for a sub-mythic guild to invest their progression in having one be the main tank
    I agree with you in that I don't think we need to be paladins either. I actually like that our "flavor" is to mitigate a ton of damage, but not be able to really heal any of the damage back. I don't want us to gain a self-heal, because then, as you say, we are basically Paladins and/or druids.

    What I would like to see though, and what I think most of us here are arguing, is for our mitigation to actually be applicable to the majority of the damage we are taking, which currently, it is not. We can't "block" most specials (Acid Torrent, Shattering Smash, etc) and that leaves us taking a lot of big hits full in the face, which of course forces us to use externals in greater proportion compared to other tanks, as their toolkits simply give them more self generated options. I honestly think that Sbar being given a longer duration so that we can actually use it at high resolve and carry over that decent on-demand absorb to the next big hit would be a huge stride in the right direction, in addition to making Demo Shout a little more accessible. As one of only 2 DR CDs, 20% on a 1 min CD seems steep.
    Last edited by Threetrees; 2015-04-01 at 01:17 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    Agree with this. Having tanked as a dk next to a warrior for a while, by far the biggest issue is my ability as a dk to handle big damage spikes on my own instead of relying on a healer to pay attention to tank mechanics. For example, on brackenspore breath I'd hit two death strike right before it, healing me up and giving me a decent blood shield to absorb the physical damage and AMS to soak the magic. I didn't even need to use rune tap and I was totally fine. My warrior co tank would occasionally get caught at half health and die, so he was basically popping everything to barely live.

    You can say this means our healers are bad but the fact remains that at the level I play (mostly heroic with a few mythic usually by end of tier) playing a warrior just feels like a handicap.
    So, you agree that we are whining about Warriors, and then you spend the whole talking about how good DKs are? Not sure I see what you are agreeing with exactly, since all you did in that post is prove our point: You can self manage a mechanic while "playing a warrior feels like a handicap."

  5. #45
    Deleted
    Some points are right. Especially demoshout. They could reduce the cooldown to 30 seconds and warriors would be on a much better place.
    Other points are pretty exaggated like the rng part. Things like revenge and shield slam proc often enough to not really feel rngish.

    I found blocks to be a problem. The more mastery you get. The weaker our actual shield block ability gets cause we might just have blocked it passively. On the other side it also increases it cause you have more chance the blocks can be critical blocks. But it can do nothing aswell.
    All it basicly does is turn your block chance from like 30ish (in my case) to 100. Good for when it blocks where it would otherwise woulden't have. But it basicly does nothing when the block would have occured anyways. Unlike other tanks that have short cooldown % based damage taken defensives.

    Sometimes i take less damage when having shield barrier up cause a lot of the damage i take is passively blocked meaning barrier breaks less fast.
    I can take 2-3 blackhand melee swings at some cases and take 0 damage. Where if i would have used block. I would have blocked but took damage.

    A good fix would be if it would proc blood craze based on our multistrike. This would give us a bit more self healing and would make multistrike less worthless.
    Last edited by mmoc00cfd16bb2; 2015-04-01 at 04:13 PM.

  6. #46
    Deleted
    even the april fools is not mocking us for the problems we clearly have , im starting to wonder if they got any idea how it is or are just ignorant?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Von Bosch View Post
    even the april fools is not mocking us for the problems we clearly have , im starting to wonder if they got any idea how it is or are just ignorant?
    I'm sure they do. There is and will be an imbalance between classes/specs. In ToT, and arguably still into SoO, monks were the ones who were getting battered (but they could put out so much damage that no one cared). They fixed those issues by buffing Mastery for monks (so Shuffle was more effective), and by giving them 2 charges of Guard. Warriors, on the other hand, were the overpowered tank, who could use Vengeance to put up obscene shield barriers on demand. From HM and into BRF, the tables flipped, essentially, and for now we are in the "weak" tank spot, mainly I think due to a change in the boss damage meta where we are all healer reliant (which is a good thing I think), and our toolkit simply hasn't been tuned just right for it. Frankly, I think Monks/DKs are in an awesome place, and I hope little tweaks/tunes can be made to get the rest of us there.

    To help with that, I maintain that...

    - Sbar needs to be made viable with a "slight" buff that brings it more inline with other mitigation, in addition to an extended duration to make use of Resolve spikes.

    - Our primary mitigation technique, Shield Block, needs to be made applicable to the true dangers of the BRF damage meta: Boss Specials (Guardians need the same, or else they would become the new warrior).

    - Or if the first two are impossible, Our CD toolkit needs to be updated with the "charge" system seen with Survival Instincts, Guard, and Rune Tap, or just shorter CDs on mainlain mitigation CDs, like Divine Protection or Guard.
    Last edited by Threetrees; 2015-04-02 at 02:32 PM.

  8. #48
    Deleted
    It is true that I would find it slightly odd if warriors were to get a large amount of self healing, though ER is really rather weak. The niche warriors seem to fit into is (or was) mitigating the damage preemptively through use of shield barrier or shield block. This worked very nicely last tier when shield barrier was a lot more powerful and could counter big magic boss specials, or shield barrier where we could chain it up though its charges system to mitigate a large amount of sustained heavy hitting from bosses and adds. However now with the weakness of shield barrier and the prevalence of Big hitting magic boss specials, our relatively meager cooldown kit doesn't cut it.

    I wouldn't suggest changing us from a preemptive AM tank to a healing one, or even buffing our shield barrier until it is as OP as a monks guard, but we really do need to see our Shield Barrier get a buff and Shield Block actually work against the abilities that hurt, namely magic ones. Last Stand and Demo shout also just feel rather weak, leaving us only with Shield wall as a reliable mitigation cooldown. They need to be looked at again, and there have been several good suggestions made in this thread.

    Afaik druid tanks are in a similar position to us, while DKs and Monks are kind of running away with the tier. I'm left still watching the patch notes every day hoping for a significant going over of tank balance from Blizzard. That and gearing up a monk. And occasionally getting smashed by Gruul on my warrior

  9. #49
    Deleted
    Druid has the problem of its active mitigation not blocking 'big special attacks', however blizzard fixed this with buffing survival instincts alongside talent choices and glyph options to give druids ways to survive constant big damage. I mean, druids active mitigation is three fold, dodge, lower auto attack damage and heal. Does nothing for the main big damage.

    What warrior needs, simplest of all is glyphs. Reduce shield wall duration in half, but also cooldown to 1 minute 20 seconds. Reduce duration of demo shout by half, but also cooldown to 40 seconds. Currently warrior has option to increase duration of shield wall at cost of cooldown, who actually uses this glyph?

    For healing, maybe multistrike procs be given instantly with a weaker stacking heal? Currently as a druid I love multistrike as it instantly raises my maximum HP by 3% and it stacks, that's miles better than a 3% heal over 3 seconds that stacks.

  10. #50
    Deleted
    they should not reduce the duration of our cds , reduce the cd but not duration.

  11. #51
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Von Bosch View Post
    they should not reduce the duration of our cds , reduce the cd but not duration.
    Look at a DK and his rune tap, shortest duration, yet so powerful.

  12. #52
    Deleted
    Problem is that they need to make our am actuely not half assed and actuely do what its supposed to do - prevent incomming dmg wich it fails at.

    I dont care for the people complaining and saying "hurr durr shield barrier is to stronk! nerf plz!" buff it so far it becomes strong again , our am revolves around preventing dmg not healing it and thats exactly what it doesnt do because its so weak and pathetic same.

    same thing for shield block, people say its strong and perhaps it is but the moment your facing a fight where theres lots of magic/unblockeble physical dmg comes to play the skill is just useless.

    Iether make shield block usable on EVERY and i mean EVERY attack ranging from magical /unblockeble physical/ dot or buff shield barrier back to what its actuely supposed to do - our answer to unblockeble/magic dmg where shield block is useless at.

    and while they are at it once again a change to spell reflection in that it reduces our magical dmg by x% its a relic of the past our disarm was arguebly more useble than this piece of shit talent is in pve now.

    But just dont leave us in the state we are right now because thats just begging every prot warrior to rerrol monk/dk .

  13. #53
    I am gearing up my paladin right now. So tired of being full health to dead faster than i or the healers can react. We have to live off externals way too much, while my monk co tank is almost invincible.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Threetrees View Post
    I'll try to keep this short, but here are my proposed changes to making warriors fall a little more in line with the other tanks. I am currently 5/10M as a protection warrior, and my co-tank is a Monk, so I will generally use him as my point of comparison.
    All of your ideas seem like they would fix a lot of things. I really like the barrier idea of the shield staying until it is consumed through damage taken. It would be a real QoL improvement. Post these changes on the official forums and I will up vote them 1000x

  15. #55
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    Nah man, that would make warriors competitive... The last time they did that, they had to quickly nerf us in a weeks time and buff mages again...

  16. #56
    Is the protection warrior still ok for the average Joe? I've played all the tanks but I just fell in love with warrior mobility it's the only tank I can stand playing. I mean I was told that shield barrier was your go to defensive for magical damage but alot of people saying it's not good enough in this thread.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkm View Post
    Is the protection warrior still ok for the average Joe? I've played all the tanks but I just fell in love with warrior mobility it's the only tank I can stand playing. I mean I was told that shield barrier was your go to defensive for magical damage but alot of people saying it's not good enough in this thread.
    Don´t worry. I have tanked 11/17 mythic bosses this content so far and never had the slightest issue with my warrior. That included hard hitting Bosses like Gruul, unblockable Suplexhits, unblockable Firebreaths and a lot of magic damage going on on Koragh. This whole thread here can be narrowed down to a ocean of whine and very little justified demands. Warriors DO need a little overhaul and/or buff but surely nothing gamebreaking and they are without a doubt not in a perfectly bad place. And for the average joe, warriors are just as fine as every other tank.
    Regarding magical damage... what other options do you have as a warrior then Shieldbarrier? Wheather it´s not good enough or really overpowered doesn´t matter, you have no other active means of countering unblockable damage^^ So you use it. Good or not.
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  18. #58
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by pkm View Post
    Is the protection warrior still ok for the average Joe? I've played all the tanks but I just fell in love with warrior mobility it's the only tank I can stand playing. I mean I was told that shield barrier was your go to defensive for magical damage but alot of people saying it's not good enough in this thread.
    Well it might be good enough in terms of heroic, but in mythic it often won't be.

    Monks have a similar ability to beloved barrier called Guard, but unfortunately for Warriors, it is actually good and scales well, so it is viable for mythic soaking of hard hitting stuff. Warriors not so lucky.

    You can do all the content, you just have to have a good headset to call for externals. That's the main problem early on. Later on, when issue tends to be healing, your healers ought to make note of you and put some dots on you, I dunno a rejuvination or something, that paladin hot... that shaman hot.

  19. #59
    Well, I'm 7/7M and 9/10M as Prot (had to switch when our off-tank left in the middle of the tier), and here's what I think needs changed:

    1. Shield Barrier needs its rage cost reduced by half. Simply doing this will basically double its effectiveness and shore up most of the glaring weakness. That means instead of a huge 60 rage chunk for full barrier, we get one for 30.

    2. Spell Reflect needs to reduce magic damage taken until it actually reflects an ability. 20 or 30%. This gives us active mitigation for magic attacks, most of which cannot be reflected.

    Do both of those things and we are essentially fixed. If the changes are class-wide, they'll also help out Arms/Fury a ton.
    Last edited by Fatalfuror; 2015-04-05 at 12:10 PM.

  20. #60
    Deleted
    Does someone else also notice how dk tanks can jsut tank np the trash that berserks and needs to be kited while warriors use a plentoria of cds and stil take a battering? its fucking disgusting.

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