Cenarion Ward vs Ysera's Gift

[Aleks0410]

Well, the logs clearly show that YG does not actually have a huge amount of overheal on the majority of fights that I actually care about efficiency on. Again, the OH thing of YG is a bit of a red herring because it is not nearly as high as one might think in any situation where it actually matters. It actually happens pretty infrequently.

Koji, I have a feeling you don't get what I mean by YG overhealing but maybe it's time to agree to disagree. I appriciate the discussion.

Literally the "CW defenders" (or whatever you'd call them) are falling back on either making false comparisons, or trying to just say "well, it's a personal choice" when it's obvious their points are just not falling in favor of CW.

Ok.

[jahoosuphat]

I thought it was implied that YG has low overhealing, mainly due to the fact that it's a smart-heal that's 4% of your max hp on an average toon.

Can you provide some false comparisons that were being made Nightfalls? I don't have time to go back through this so I'll let you prove your point.

To me, when applicable CW can be a wipe saver in a few regards; saving a dps, heal or a tank it doesn't matter if a death is prevented. I see it as another emergency heal in our toolkit if NS and SM are on CD. Its mana cost is reasonable and it's instant. With some multi strike procs and a crit or two you're talking about a very significant heal relative to the mana and GCD required to use it. In situations where I feel it has a place I don't think I'm generally worried about overheal, rather just making sure said person survives and in that function it performs very well. Those are the "points" that count for me when I consider it's use and they definitely fall in favor of CW.

You can imply that "CW is wrong, regardless" all you want but there's no real way to prove that that I can think of. If it's not quantifiable then it definitely seems subjective to me.

[nightfalls]

Can you provide some false comparisons that were being made Nightfalls? I don't have time to go back through this so I'll let you prove your point.

False comparison: Acting like CW doesn't have a mana cost or GCD cost. YG does not, CW does. You don't compare YG to CW, you compare YG AND another ability to CW.

To me, when applicable CW can be a wipe saver in a few regards; saving a dps, heal or a tank it doesn't matter if a death is prevented.

CW is many things, a wipe saver it is not even if you are using it.

rather just making sure said person survives

If it's really that "oh noes person will die if I don't use a GCD" (which, by the way, is actually quite rare assuming your healers are properly keeping the raid stable and people are not standing in 1 shot mechanics, which are 1 shots anyway) your GCD of pick is not CW.

[Kojiyama]

See, I question if CW is actually a 'life saver' given the mechanics it employs.

It is, by its nature, non-reactive but 100% proactive. You need to know who to put it on before they get hit, otherwise it is potentially useless. There's no reason to put it on someone at low health if you can't assure that they will actually survive the next hit that will actually trigger it.

However, there is no assurance that putting it on someone proactively will actually save them either. What if they actually just die?

CW seems primarily useful in a scenario where someone is at moderate (but not critical) health and there is enough minor passive damage to trigger it without risk of death. However, at that point, it really isn't doing anything overly special.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of CW in general, but I'm just not convinced that mechanically it is superior to a passive option combined with a more direct healing approach to emergency situations. I actually feel like if I tried using CW to 'save' people, I would be running more risk of them dying than just casting NS, Regrowth, or Regrowth+SM. If it was actually an absorb rather than a reactive HoT, I would reevaluate its value significantly.

[jahoosuphat]

Koji I think that's part of the intuitiveness of it. The spells usefulness definitely depends on how/when used. Delaying or casting a few seconds early can definitely "make or break" the spell, there's no arguing that. The more comfortable you are with it and an encounter the more effective you can make it.

As I mentioned before I don't see it as using CW instead of NS+RG or RG+SM but a possible alternative when those aren't available, aka another tool in the kit. If you can maximize your use of it to me it's just a rejuv on crack.

CW is many things, a wipe saver it is not even if you are using it.

Would you agree that somewhere sometime CW has prevented deaths that would have possibly lead to wipes?

If it's really that "oh noes person will die if I don't use a GCD" (which, by the way, is actually quite rare assuming your healers are properly keeping the raid stable and people are not standing in 1 shot mechanics, which are 1 shots anyway) your GCD of pick is not CW.

Sure it is, I've done it plenty of times. This seems like an unsubstantiated blanket statement.

[nightfalls]

Koji I think that's part of the intuitiveness of it. The spells usefulness definitely depends on how/when used. Delaying or casting a few seconds early can definitely "make or break" the spell, there's no arguing that. The more comfortable you are with it and an encounter the more effective you can make it.

OK, that's just like any HoT. Except this one requires a hit of damage to trigger it, which when it comes to death prevention, is actually almost worse than other HoTs because when you are talking "death prevention" it's likely the other hit will in fact be the killing blow.

"The more comfortable with it, the more effective" OK that is another "blanket statement" (in your own words) about ANY non-passive talent. It doesn't mean that it's more effective than the passive. Sure, in 5 mans or possibly in PvP which seems to be what the talent was mainly made for anyway. But in a 20 man, not really.

Would you agree that somewhere sometime CW has prevented deaths that would have possibly lead to wipes?

I would not agree that CW has ever prevented a death in a 20 man raid that another non-talented ability couldn't have prevented as well.

Sure it is, I've done it plenty of times. This seems like an unsubstantiated blanket statement.

Right, which is why you had a log linked earlier after all your boasting where you had CW talented for Kromog pulls... and then never used it.

It seems in fact you're the one giving unsubstantiated blanket statements (oh, I've done it, blah blah). Either link a log (either yours or someone else's public log) or give some actual argument or evidence.

[jahoosuphat]

CW is many things, a wipe saver it is not even if you are using it.

If it's really that "oh noes person will die if I don't use a GCD" (which, by the way, is actually quite rare assuming your healers are properly keeping the raid stable and people are not standing in 1 shot mechanics, which are 1 shots anyway) your GCD of pick is not CW.

You got logs to back those up?

At the end of the day I'm simply stating my opinion on the talent tier and commenting on my use of a spell vs another passive spell. I have nothing to prove; YOU'RE the one who's talking in absolutes and stating that it's flat out wrong. If that's an argument you want to make, make it and "post evidence". I've not once said that YG is wrong or CW is right, that's on you.

Either link a log (either yours or someone else's public log) or give some actual argument or evidence.

But you don't have to do this do you?

My logs were linked, CW was used and when used it was for death prevention. One pull without use doesn't mean I don't use it at all, that should be evident.

which when it comes to death prevention, is actually almost worse than other HoTs because when you are talking "death prevention" it's likely the other hit will in fact be the killing blow.

Link evidence/logs please.

I would not agree that CW has ever prevented a death in a 20 man raid that another non-talented ability couldn't have prevented as well.

And I think we're done here. I'll follow Aleks out.

[Deleted]

Very simple:

CW for CM's.

YG for (mythic) raiding.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I came to this thread for guidance on which to choose for my Bear (just started playing him again) but see it's primarily a healer's discussion. Still, healers spend a lot of time thinking about what's healthy for tanks - that's why we love you.

I just woke my bear from hibernation since Cataclysm, so I don't have any personal numbers to compare here. I see Ysera's Gift scales with health vs. Cenarion Ward scaling with Attack Power. I see top tanks using both (and a lot of other builds that aren't recommended in the guides: http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html ), so there's obviously still room for discussion. Ysera's is just 2% for bears? Even though my tooltip still says 4%?

My real concern is tying another GCD up with CW, since I already use Dream of Cenarius and Healing Touch. I would have two big on-demand heals, but a GCD spent on CW is one not spent on Mangle to possibly proc Healing Touch. Meanwhile Ysera's would just keep ticking away in addition to whatever I did.

Thoughts on which you'd rather have your tank spec'ing?

[CenariusTheForestLord]

13/13M guardian here. I don't know if this counts as a necro yet. But to answer your question. 1 cenarion ward can heal as much as an entire fight of Ysera's gift when used correctly. It's not useful, just easier. When you overgear content you might never use CW anymore because the bosses can't kill you. Then it might be useful to go ysera's for pure ease of use.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

13/13M guardian here. I don't know if this counts as a necro yet. But to answer your question. 1 cenarion ward can heal as much as an entire fight of Ysera's gift when used correctly. It's not useful, just easier. When you overgear content you might never use CW anymore because the bosses can't kill you. Then it might be useful to go ysera's for pure ease of use.

Thanks Cenarius - looking at some of those top builds, that thought had occurred to me, that what I need right now as a wee leveling bear is different from what a 746 mythic raider specs. I know on my DK, I spec more defensively early and more offense when survival is less of an issue. So guess I'll go for more defensive CDs now, and loosen up later.

[Folly]

I agree with Cenarius, and wanted to give you some background info as to why this is the case.

As you mentioned CW scales on AP and when combined with resolve can result in a massive amount of healing.

Another aspect of it that is not often considered is that you can use it on other people, whether thats a raid member or the other tank. While this might seem counter intuitive, since as the tank you tend to take more damage than anyone else. Often the damage you are taking as a tank is much smoother than that of someone in need. As an example of this, while tanking kilrogg you'll experience very little spike damage (assuming you don't screw the active mitigation). Meanwhile the off tank or the target of the heart seeker takes much higher and consistent damage. This means that placing it on them instead of yourself. You suffer a minor increase in TMI for yourselves for a considerable decrease in their TMI. To me, I find this to be a valuable trade.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Thanks Folly! I did re-spec into CW, dinged 100, and have been tanking heroics with it. Feels like I'm spending a lot of time clicking various defensive CDs, but I'm still holding agro and I'm surviving, so I guess that works. Doesn't feel as arrogant and in-control as my DK, but I'm bearly geared and getting there.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

I agree with Cenarius, and wanted to give you some background info as to why this is the case.

As you mentioned CW scales on AP and when combined with resolve can result in a massive amount of healing.

Another aspect of it that is not often considered is that you can use it on other people, whether thats a raid member or the other tank. While this might seem counter intuitive, since as the tank you tend to take more damage than anyone else. Often the damage you are taking as a tank is much smoother than that of someone in need. As an example of this, while tanking kilrogg you'll experience very little spike damage (assuming you don't screw the active mitigation). Meanwhile the off tank or the target of the heart seeker takes much higher and consistent damage. This means that placing it on them instead of yourself. You suffer a minor increase in TMI for yourselves for a considerable decrease in their TMI. To me, I find this to be a valuable trade.

Big caveat to this though. The heal only scales with resolve on yourself. If resolve is at 230% and you use it on another target, you will not heal them for 230% more.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Oh that's good to know. Right now, as undergeared tank alt, I mostly need it for myself. 680 and counting!

[CenariusTheForestLord]

Oh that's good to know. Right now, as undergeared tank alt, I mostly need it for myself. 680 and counting!

Spam those mythic dungeons with friends man. I lvled my prot pally from 680 to 710 just through mythic dungeons. 8 a week, easy loot

[Cannibalus]

**EDIT: Restoration Druid**

We're progressing Kromog and I'm catching flakk from a few people about not running Ysera's Gift; their argument being "but it heals the raid". I've asked them if they would kindly read the talent and explained that, especially in Kromog, there's been so few times that someone has actually dipped that low that even if it happened there's still only a 1/20 chance they'll get a tick of Ysera's. The logic just baffles me. A fight like this where the vast majority of damage taken is raid-wide means a large portion of healing will just be ticks on myself, meaning minimal raid healing overall. I'd just blow it off but I've been approached by more than one person. I find that hard to believe due to the low, random nature of the talents healing. To me it's a fluff spell and I prefer to run CW lately so I can have controlled, targeted burst if needed instead of number padding with a comfort-pick spell.

Another argument was "well EVERYONE's using it". This may be true but to me that's because it's a classic "set it and forget it" talent choice. People like free healing they don't have to put any thought into. As stated above I'm more attracted to the controlled nature of CW, even if it might not end the fight with as much healing done as YG.

I should have just dismissed them completely after the "but raid heals" argument since they can't be bothered to even read the description of the talent before proposing it but I wanted to see what you guys thought.

This is the spot on example to how people can be bad through being stubborn, basicly self-sabotaging themselves. Mana is no issue at this point so if you find a GCD to squeeze CW, you have a GCD to squeeze in another spell. Also assuming that you have 4-set and the class trinket it's generally reccomended to spam rejuv and keep lifebloom on 2 targets, because their healing has a chance to splash in 15 yards, so better cast a Rejuv, let Ysera "smart heal" the raid, and fuck off with CW.

Also stop being stubborn, i hate stubborn people that progress stuff that was cool 6 months ago, because if you are there, you're doing something wrong, otherwise you would be healing Archi Mythic on farm... doooh.

[Deleted]

This is the spot on example to how people can be bad through being stubborn, basicly self-sabotaging themselves. Mana is no issue at this point so if you find a GCD to squeeze CW, you have a GCD to squeeze in another spell. Also assuming that you have 4-set and the class trinket it's generally reccomended to spam rejuv and keep lifebloom on 2 targets, because their healing has a chance to splash in 15 yards, so better cast a Rejuv, let Ysera "smart heal" the raid, and fuck off with CW.

Also stop being stubborn, i hate stubborn people that progress stuff that was cool 6 months ago, because if you are there, you're doing something wrong, otherwise you would be healing Archi Mythic on farm... doooh.

Did you check the date on the thread? It's from 11 months ago during BRF progress. The discussion on this last page is now about Guardian Druids.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Spam those mythic dungeons with friends man. I lvled my prot pally from 680 to 710 just through mythic dungeons. 8 a week, easy loot

Yep yep ~ Working on it. 693 now. I've tanked all the mythics on my main, but was hoping to hit 700 on this alt before trying to queue. Gonna try tomorrow either way so I can get in on the 500 valor weekly event. Figure a 695 or 697 tank who knows the fights will find a spot with someone.

As for running with friends, most of those are on Alliance side, and this is a Tauren bear. I had some friends on Horde I raided with back in Cata, but I just started playing again in December and haven't reconnected with any of them yet.