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  1. #1

    Question about raid leadership.

    Back in Wrath I tanked Ulduar 25. We were in heroic pushing for the mount and finally myself and probably 10 of the other people could not take the raid leader's crap anymore. After probably 20-30 wipes on Yogg the guild broke, right then. I decided raiding was not for me anymore and focused on the casual aspect of WoW.

    Fast forward to WoD, I'm into healing now. While I have no intention of jumping to Mythic, or grinding thirty+ hours a week. I figured it was time for me to start raiding again. Found a few dude bro guilds, where in chat it was a bunch of teenagers talking about getting with girls and insulting homsexuals - with of course really annoying laughs. Also had a great recuiter too who was not like the trolls at all. Left pretty fast, after my first vent run. Won't deal with that.

    So I finally found a guild. Just normal raiders and good people. I have some heroic experience they do not but I figured it would be fun to grow with this guild since the people are top notch. Problem is Wife and Hubby Co GMs, have never played a healer or tank their entire history in wow. Was having great fun, and then a peice of gear dropped for healers.

    "A caster chest peice dps item because it has no spirit." He said that over the Mic. Part of me just wanted to explain it to him. Another part of me expected him to have a better grasp of such things because he was a leader of the raid and guild. But I thought one of the other healers who had been then awhile would say something to him. Problem is they never said anything in mumble to him either.

    Then later into the normal HM raid, the dps was not very good at all but bosses downed because healers were strong, he would say things like, "I do not care what other raid leaders say. DPS doesn't matter, only the boss down matters." I thought to myself, only someone who played only as a DPS would ever say that. Every fight same thing, healers stressed to hell, he would go on saying something like that and never give the healers credit.

    I know the how the healing role works, it is always your fault when it doesn't work, the raid never succeeds because of you. None of the glory all of the blame most of the time.

    So I figured the logical course of action is to talk to him but half of me says I should not ever bother. He is a leader but doesn't know healer gear has no spirit outside of rings trinkets and neck. So even if I was to explain that to him and he was cool. It is still pretty ignorant as someone who controls all the loot. Also I will have to explain to him how mastery is junk for my MW and how I need multistrike so I may reroll on something I have - who knows how that would go. Again something he should know handing out loot.

    Finally he claims DPS does not matter. Yet his wife and him have terrible DPS which is cool fine I did not sign up to push mythic. But he also has not intention of recruting any better dps for the future. Which means he has no real concept about what kind of stress that puts on his healers to preform miracles to push the badies through. But yet wants to progress into heroic and so on. He wants to compete with this other enemy guild that booted him out.

    We went to normal Blackrock and other than Beastlord, we got our butts ate. No amount of heals could save them outside of that boss. Tons of puggers came in saying the same thing. Great heals your DPS will get you no where sorry. Would not change his mindset.

    So I talk to him and give him time (the guy is 60), to grow as a GM and the raiders as a group. Talk to him and see what happens at least about the gear stuff? Or should I just consider him a good guy and the guild good people. But they will never be able to clear current content even at normal - so find one that does. I'm torn because I am a loyal person but at the same time no hope of ever succeeding most likely is disheartening.

    What should I do? Explain everything or move on? I have experience raiding with very good aholes but little to no experience of dealing with great people, lead by two GMs that are more or less nice but horrible. They advertised as a knowlegable, serious, but fun normal guild who would focus on pushing futher. Hard to see that.
    Last edited by Epicon; 2015-03-23 at 03:23 PM.

  2. #2
    That sounds really frustating. It looks like you really value serious PVE progress, but this GM does not.

    I used to be in your spot, somehow. I'm a fairly experimented raider, I was MT during WOTLK, raid leader, server firsts, this and that. In and out of the game since, and right now I'm raid leader in a fairly good guild, 6/7 mythic + 4/10 mythic.

    I love to play at the start of expansions to try things out, so when MOP launched I rolled a Mistweaver and joined a BIG but casual guild. When I mean big, I mean 50+ players connected every night, sometimes around 100. So raiding was never a problem. But boy, was it painful. Mainy people who didnt have a clue, bad RL, bad performances overall. The people were very nice, it was fun and all, but I realized I wanted more. So I started to talk around to officers and the GM and soon enough I was leading the raids. But it was conflicting with the overall attitude of the guild, casual and all. I was trying to push for Heroic Mode (Mythic now) but people were just not good enough, even if we managed to get some good results when I took charge. I actually started trouble, some clashes between officers and members who were looking for more in PVE, when the majority just wanted a good raiding time, no matter the performance.
    I felt bad about it, and in the end I realized that I was just not in the good guild for me. These people were having fun wiping on normal mode and I was making trouble because I pushed them further, probably too far that it was possible. There were just not looking for the same thing than I (and a few other members) did.

    When I realized it, I stopped raiding with them and started looking around, but in the end I stopped playing for the expansion.

    Ask yourself, what to you value more ? PVE progress or your guild ? To me, it seems that you are looking for a good raiding experience. HM progression is not too much to ask at this point of the expansion, plenty of decent guilds around that are progressing in HM currently. Wiping in Foundry NORMAL mode is really poor at this point, as far as raiding goes. Dont try to change the guild, you may kill it. Ask what do you really what and act accordingly ! In the end it's your game, your fun, your experience.
    Last edited by Alianthos; 2015-03-23 at 03:51 PM.

  3. #3
    Deleted
    Explain to him, in specific points, why he is dumb and unfit to lead, as he lacks basics knowledge of the game, in a private message.

  4. #4
    Pit Lord Anium's Avatar
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    Raid leading is a fucking job and I wouldn't wish it upon myself or anyone I cared about lol

    Also, pm him, but expect his rage and a possible g kick, people don't like their feelings hurt

  5. #5
    PM him; don't whisper him. It's never easy to have a conversation like that one or two sentences at a time with someone throwing responses at you. Don't be antagonistic. Just lay out your concerns reasonably.

    If he responds reasonably, proceed. If not, find another guild. There are plenty out there and it's not hard to go looking with tools like OpenRaid and group finder available to you. Your choice doesn't have to be between asshole teenagers and ignorant clods.

    One thing, I don't you think you can expect your RL to understand or care about your stat priorities. That's your job. Rol/bid on what is going to improve your toon. As long as the guild's loot rules allow you to do so, the RL shouldn't have to know what your priorities are.

    Now if he's doing some kind of asinine "loot council" where he's pushing loot on to people then, yes, he better know weights, but honestly if someone with his grasp is trying to distribute loot in that way it's probably a lost cause.

  6. #6
    It sounds like you're looking for a guild that has a raid team who are good people AND good players. It's very hard to find - I was looking for a long while and never found it, which is why I ended up starting my own guild. It wasn't something I wanted to do again, but I was tired of having to put up with antisocial a-holes if I wanted to progress, or give up on progression if I wanted to enjoy the game.

    Based on what you've written, there is no chance of that guild ever meeting your ideal performance standards. If they don't already try and push their DPS to at least a decent level for raiding, they are never going to. There is a baseline level of performance that is required for raiding and it sounds like your DPS don't want to even push that level, nor does your raid leader want to change that.

    You'll be wasting your breath if you try to get the DPS to step up. The raid lead is clearly happy with the current situation and if he's 60 the chances of him changing his mind are slim to none. Older people tend to be very set in their ways and difficult to sway, for good or for ill. You almost certainly will not get him to change his mind. His mindset is completely wrong for any kind of progression raiding, and that seems to be what you want to engage in.

    My advice would be to find another guild if you want to progress, because nothing is going to change in your current one. I'll wish you luck, since finding what you're looking for is hard...I know from personal experience.

  7. #7
    Dreadlord The Yeti's Avatar
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    I would run. I'd run so far away.

    I'd message him explaining why he just doesn't get it, and then find a place to raid that isn't full of incompetency.

    You can raid just to have fun and not push progression, but don't raid is such a stupid manner.



  8. #8
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    Weren't you saying you wanna be a casual? So what's the issue i don't get it, if you're a casual on a casual guild, failing on normal bosses is exactly what you're meant to be doing, if your leaders knew how to handle loot, recruit and properly manage a guild, they wouldn't be doing normals at all, they would be killing Blackhand Mythic.

    So, stop whining and either stay if you're a casual or leave for something better if you actually want something better, pretty simple logic.

  9. #9
    As a raid leader myself, I can safely say this: The raid lead should be a top performer in whatever role they play. If they're not, they should step aside immediately. It's not just about progression, it's about morale, and having a "bad" raid leader is horrible for morale because everyone knows that that person is pretty much untouchable.

    It's basically the same as the age old problem of the RL's wife/girlfriend being terrible and holding the group back, but no one would dare say anything. Having that spectre hanging over the group is toxic.

    If he won't listen to reason, then your only option is to try and start your own group in that guild if the politics will allow, or leave. I know that sucks because you're right, it's hard to find a guild that balances reasonable progression with good personalities. Too bad I'm already drowning in healers.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by nexedryon View Post
    Weren't you saying you wanna be a casual? So what's the issue i don't get it, if you're a casual on a casual guild, failing on normal bosses is exactly what you're meant to be doing, if your leaders knew how to handle loot, recruit and properly manage a guild, they wouldn't be doing normals at all, they would be killing Blackhand Mythic.
    Well that's a steaming pile of ridiculous horseshit.

    A casual guild still needs proper management to succeed. Casual just means raiding for fewer hours, focusing less intensely on attendance, raid composition, loot distribution (DKP), etc. and generally pushing difficulties less than Mythic. You seem to think casual means "disorganized and run by a bunch of ignorant idiots." It does not.

  11. #11
    Banned Tennis's Avatar
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    Just leave. I've been in guilds like this and they don't want to be good. They just want to do things their way.

  12. #12
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    I'd leave too, for two reasons. First, saying DPS doesn't matter is ignorant - it does, though the tolerance for less than perfect DPS is higher in more casual raids. For example, in a hunter thread there was talk of how to properly use a half-second gap and whether one shot order was better than another. Fine for Mythic, but that level of scrutiny is out of place for a casual raid.

    Second, married couples (or committed single couples) generally suck. The problem is that they never will raid apart and you can't call one out without the other jumping to defense. I get that dynamic and it's not an issue if they're both good but when one is bad it basically forces the raid to carry him or her because you know they're not pissing off their spouse over dups in a raid.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerchunk View Post
    PM him; don't whisper him.
    I'm sitting here scratching my head wondering what you meant until I realize there is still in game mail in WoW. Whoops.

    Granted, it kinda sucks though because it does have a limitation of how much can be in one mail so you'd have to number them so they read them in the right order.


    But yeah, probably should just abandon ship. It really comes down to whether or not you're willing to trade progression for the raiding group, and it sounds like you're not.

  14. #14
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    I'm going to amend my post above in one way. I think it's best to tell him why you're thinking of leaving ("Hey, i get that we're not pushing Mythic or anything but the slack approach to DPS means the healers all have to work a lot harder to keep people up since the fights are longer... IF we aren't going to expect DPS to pull their weight I'll be looking for another raid 'cause I don't really need to stress out over things that should be avoidable").

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Molis's Avatar
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    The things you are trying to decide on are not worth the stress. Raid Leads and Guild culture will not change with one PM.
    Eventually you will get tired of it and hate raiding again.

    Just by making this post your decision has been made.

    Leave and find a better fit.

  16. #16
    It's kind of depressing to hear there's a RL that doesn't understand that Spirit only comes on certain types of gear, but you had a chance to speak up and inform everyone listening.

    I guess I'll say that if I found myself in a guild where I wasn't comfortable voicing my thoughts or concerns politely, I'd start looking for another guild to call home.
    "Bananas, like people, sometimes look different when they are naked." Grace Helbig

  17. #17
    Guilds like these make up the bulk of the raiding population. And I'm sure many of them are filled with veteran players who have likely never looked up any information in years of playing but just assume they know everything because they've been playing for so long. Case in point, if you were expecting great leadership and knowledgeable players in a guild that can hardly kill a normal boss in BRF, you went to the wrong place. Just about every guild out there that advertises says only good things about themselves and chief among them is that the guild is knowledgeable. My own mythic guild has plenty of people that aren't very knowledgeable.

    I would just be polite and tell him you're leaving because this guild just doesn't work out for you and drop it there. Even if he does take your advice well, he has to have the initiative to be the leader himself. Being an excellent raid/guild leader, even in a smaller guild, is like a part-time job. Sounds to me like you're looking more for a guild progressing in heroics atm.
    Last edited by PBitt; 2015-03-23 at 11:28 PM.

  18. #18
    Leader of a normal guild - I'd be thankful people are not forgetting to breath.
    Seriously though you are expecting way too much there.

  19. #19
    Mechagnome Incarnia's Avatar
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    I'd leave. Nothing you say can ever change his mind about how he wish to lead his raids and run his guild. Hell, there's 1 night pugs out there doing way way better than what your gm/rl is able to pull with his raids.

    Casual for me is not wiping like fu*k on easypeasy normal bosses and enjoy it (like, really? you'd have to be a bit, eh, odd...... to enjoy such self torture).
    Casual is someone who just cannot or don't want to put in all the hours "hardcore" entails. Casual is not synonym with bad player who just don't give a fuck... Those are something completely different.

  20. #20
    Mechagnome Miley's Avatar
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    I would just look for a new guild op. My WoD perks guild ended up having a decent raid team for me. Currently 7/10 hc. Progress is slower than I'd like but it's still there. The guild is casual but with a competent RL we have uninvited under performers and still recruit to improve our team.
    Finding a good casual guild is hard but some do exist so start looking and good luck.

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