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  1. #1
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    Operator Thogar problems

    Our guild made its first attempts on Normal Thogar today, and we keep wiping right around the 30% mark, largely due to too many adds, I believe.

    Previously, our requirement to come to heroic highmaul was having ~18k min dps single target for everything up to Twin Ogron. We still have that same requirement for BRF Normal as well.

    However, I'm under the impression average DPS on Thogar needs to be much higher. I usually pull around 40-50k due to AOE... But we have people doing ~18k even with AOE. Is there an average DPS for Normal Thogar, or charts I can look at that aren't 'top end guild' stuff?
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  2. #2
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    Make sure to kill Firemenders and Man-at-Arms fast. Firemenders are healing, and Man-at-Arms are doing heavy aoe dmg with Iron Bellow. Make sure that the tank tanking the boss are stacking the boss upon the adds, so people can cleave. Its hard to see what problems you got, witout a log to check it on. But doing 15-20k dps on a encounter like Thogar, is quite horrible.

  3. #3
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    Having a DK might help you meet the dps requirement on adds (mass grip). Aside from that maybe skull up the man at arms? I doubt it's a lack of aoe. I'd take a guess that the man at arms is up too long and healers are being pressed.

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Racthoh's Avatar
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    there are some things you can do to speed up kill times, and basically focus a lot more on the boss.

    like just about completely ignoring the firemender add, let him free cast his **damage spell** onto the man at arms and let it kill the npc for you. just make sure to dispel/spellsteal/purge the cauterize HoT that comes onto the man at arms after damaging it.

    another thing you can do to get more dps time on the boss is to completely ignore the giant turret trains, just let them shoot their bombs and take them out if the raid to the walls/train doors because they will despawn whether you kill those things or not. basically free dps time.

    also, during the second splt you can bring the entire raid and the boss to one side to finish him off. just send 1 tank and 1 healer to the other split and grab aggro to those mobs so they don't start throwing grenades everywhere. preferably send them to the side with the man at arms, so nobody is solo tanking both boss and man at arms.
    Last edited by Racthoh; 2015-04-09 at 08:42 AM.

  5. #5
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Got any logs? I'm wondering if you're having problems with engaging the adds and/or dealing with the man-at-arms and firemenders.
    Last edited by TEHPALLYTANK; 2015-04-09 at 08:50 AM.
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  6. #6
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    I don't think we have anyone that records logs. I'll try and get some, but it won't be until next week. We also had a few mistakes because I normally DPS, but tonight I was tanking -and- calling out the train lanes. I didn't realize doing both was quite so difficult.
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  7. #7
    If you have dps only pulling 18k on this fight, then they don't know their AoE rotation very well and unless they improve, you're better off not taking them for your progression as it means others need to cover the dps loss > boss health increase...

    Having said that, you need to focus down the man at arms when they spawn - men at arms create havoc and ideally they should be dead before the next track swap... You might benefit from a /tar macro for your group to target them quickly and nuke, many people find it hard to even pick out a skull mob in amongst a tonne of adds so this makes it a tonne easier...

  8. #8
    18k dps isn't acceptable tbh but i.m.o the adds dont really hurt either, look at death logs - if you dont have logs, look at skada or something to give you a rough idea atleast to what you are wiping too.

    Man at arms hurt but thats about it, so even single target would work.
    For normal i'd say 25k dps would probably work as a safe bet (just a rough guess)

  9. #9
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    As pointed out earlier, logs would help. 18 k DPS when AoEing seems quite low. Interrupting Firemenders and focusing down Men-at-arms is also vitally important, arguably more so than padding meters.

    Is it strictly a direct DPS issue or do you have survivability issues as well, i.e. do you and your other tank drop too fast? Make sure people with AoE stuns use their abilities to mitigate damage once the mobs are grouped up. On some progression runs me and another shaman kept chaining Capacitor totems for a 10 sec aoe stun, after our tanks had gathered them up and shockwaved them. Spirit link is also a real saver for when adds are piling up. Best of luck!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Is there an average DPS for Normal Thogar, or charts I can look at that aren't 'top end guild' stuff?
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ty=3&boss=1692

    Set to normal Thogar, and percentile is set to 50%, which should be the average DPS.

    Don't see any 18k numbers until you put it down to the bottom 10th percentile, which are mostly populated by carries and people that died on an encounter.

  11. #11
    Whats the raid comp like?
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  12. #12
    Brewmaster Mystrome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkyfatter View Post
    Make sure to kill Firemenders and Man-at-Arms fast. Firemenders are healing, and Man-at-Arms are doing heavy aoe dmg with Iron Bellow.
    This.

    Have 2 melee focus the Firemender and rotate interrupts.

    Have everyone else focus the Man-at-Arms.

    Another thing worth mentioning is to make sure people drop the bombs near the doors and NOT near the middle of the room.

  13. #13
    18k is full on new people or people that can't give a shit to be honest. People can consistently pull far more than that in challenge modes where gear is scaled to 630.

    I'm all for raiding being fun but when I consistently die because people can't execute a rotation that takes 5 minutes to read up then it becomes less fun.

    tl;dr, tell people to read up a bit. 18k isn't acceptable in the gear people rock these days.

  14. #14
    Even 18k minimum on heroic HM is low. IMO normal HM ~16k, Heroic HM ~20k is expected. BRF is a bit tougher and also has many adds or multiple bosses thoughout so I'd say the absolute minimum anyone in there should be pulling is 22-24k which is doable even at 630 ilvl.

    On a fight with so many adds I'd be expecting at least 30k. People were doing this much on tectus at 640-650. Absolutely no reason for anyone to be at 18k

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystrome View Post
    This.

    Have 2 melee focus the Firemender and rotate interrupts.

    Have everyone else focus the Man-at-Arms.

    Another thing worth mentioning is to make sure people drop the bombs near the doors and NOT near the middle of the room.
    why would you interupt it? makes no sense. Its extra damage onto the man at arms. Much easier and beneficial if the heal he places on the manatarrms is dispelled.

    never interupt or u are losing a lot of dps on the manatarms.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Avada Kedavra View Post
    why would you interupt it? makes no sense. Its extra damage onto the man at arms. Much easier and beneficial if the heal he places on the manatarrms is dispelled.

    never interupt or u are losing a lot of dps on the manatarms.
    Because it places the healing on all mobs, not just the man-at-arms. Firemender and the others get it too, making it take longer to get them all down, which isn't beneficial other than padding numbers.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Therougetitan View Post
    Because it places the healing on all mobs, not just the man-at-arms. Firemender and the others get it too, making it take longer to get them all down, which isn't beneficial other than padding numbers.
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  18. #18
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    Alright. A fair bit of useful information here.

    As far as firemenders go, I don't think our group is competent enough just yet to manage dispelling the heal and using the dps.

    Our biggest problem I found is tanks (me included. Our bear is at like 677, and I'm at 672) dying at around the 30% mark due to just too many adds staying up too long. I'm pretty sure that getting AOE managed will fix most of our issues, along with better raid awarenesss.

    I'm pretty sure our healing and tanking is good, since one attempt was botched and our bear tank managed to survive 9 stacks of enkindle.

    Thanks all for the help. Hopefully next week or this weekend I'll have logs and a kill.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Our guild made its first attempts on Normal Thogar today, and we keep wiping right around the 30% mark, largely due to too many adds, I believe.

    Previously, our requirement to come to heroic highmaul was having ~18k min dps single target for everything up to Twin Ogron. We still have that same requirement for BRF Normal as well.

    However, I'm under the impression average DPS on Thogar needs to be much higher. I usually pull around 40-50k due to AOE... But we have people doing ~18k even with AOE. Is there an average DPS for Normal Thogar, or charts I can look at that aren't 'top end guild' stuff?
    Something that we do on heroic that helps is to bring a third tank who's sole purpose is to pick up the adds and the man at arms. This frees up your two main tanks to focus on the boss and avoids excess stacks on one tank during the splits.

    I can't really make a call on the aoe unless I know what kind of dps you're running. Be aware though that Thogar, like blast Furnace, is a single target fight disguised as an aoe fight. While getting the adds down quick is important, it's just as important to not neglect boss dps. Maybe you should designate dpsers to spec for aoe while others are for single target.
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  20. #20
    Elemental Lord Rixis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    I don't think we have anyone that records logs. I'll try and get some, but it won't be until next week. We also had a few mistakes because I normally DPS, but tonight I was tanking -and- calling out the train lanes. I didn't realize doing both was quite so difficult.
    What we did was have every single person install the Thogar Helper addon, even if you have a 5 minute break. It made calling out the lanes a lot less neccesary, and as you progress on attempts, you'll find the pattern becomes ingrained, that helps a little too.

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