Another Alternate Arms Design /w Playable Simulation

[Deleted]

A while back I read this thread (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ms+javascript) which gave me the inspiration to do something similar and come up with a few ideas of my own. During my spare time this week I've started to put some of these ideas into a playable simulation of the design that I've come up with and while it isn't finished it would be nice to see what people think and get some ideas/input. I spend most of my time lurking on the forums here so it's good to actually post something a little more substantial than usual.

Thanks to Celarent for the idea .

Core Design

The main rotation of the spec has Mortal Strike followed by a combination of filler moves (Overpower, Whirlwind, Slam) the order of which "morphs" the final ability Weapon Strike in a manner similar to Invoke from Dota. For example a combination of OP-WW-WW will turn Weapon Strike (which does nothing by default) into Weapon Strike: Cleave with one charge, whereas OP-OP-OP would give you Weapon Strike: Stormbolt.

Mortal Strike applies Deep Wounds to the target - ticks of DW grant charges of OP which is used in most combos. In addition Opportunity Strike is an attack off the GCD which is used to burn excess rage - each use of OS increases the damage of the next Weapon Strike by 20% (up to a max of 40%).

Abilities

Mortal Strike
Inflicts n% weapon damage and generates 20 rage.
Critical hits generate an extra 10 rage.
Cooldown: 6 seconds.


Deep Wounds
Bleed damage for n% weapon damage over 15 sec.
Applied by Mortal Strike and Cleave.
Each tick has a 60% chance to generate a charge of overpower.


Opportunity Strike
30 Rage
Inflicts n% weapon damage.
Each cast of OS increases the damage of your next Weapon Strike by 20% up to a maximum of 40%.
Maximum 2 stacks, not on the global cooldown - intended as the main outlet for excess rage.

Haven't added Overpower/Whirlwind/Slam here to save space since nothing majorly important really needs to be said about them.

Weapon Strikes

L60 Talent
OP - OP - OP
Grants one charge of whichever L60 talent was selected (in this example Stormbolt).


Cleave
OP - WW - WW
Grants one charge of cleave.
Cleaves all enemies infront of the warrior for n% weapon damage.
I want to feel like Saurfang dammit.

Cooldowns

Deadly Calm
1 minute cooldown
Your next weapon strike now has 3 charges, does 40% extra damage, and does not consume charges of opportunity strike.


Recklessness
3 minute cooldown
Increases critical strike chance by 30% and critical strike damage by 15%.

The Simulation

The simulation itself is made using Game Maker Studio and can be downloaded using the link below. If anyone is interested in taking a look I'll make the source files available, originally I didn't plan on spending so much time on it but the code has got a little messy and could do with being cleaned up a bit.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pnbjuark58...aster.exe?dl=0

As it stands the basic's are currently up and running, press Z to "charge" into combat and start auto-attacking with W being the bind for Weapon Strike and Q being the bind for Opportunity Strike. Stacks of Overpower and Opportunity Strike can be seen to the binds for OP and OS.

Currently as it stands there are only 2 Weapon Strikes/Combinations currently implemented - my current ideas for additional combinations include a single target orientated one without OP for times when OP stacks are low and possibly another combination to flesh out the system a bit more although I'm a little stuck on what that one could be (possibly a buff that needs to be maintained).

Also with only 3 or 4 different combinations it is possibly overkill having 3 fillers in each combination - lowering it to 2 would possibly make the whole thing flow a bit better (e.g. only have x2 OP for Stormbolt instead of x3). Stuff which I would like to implement would include but is not limited to:

• Cooldowns (Inner Rage needs a few code related things redesigning to fit it in).
• Stats sheet which can be adjusted.
• Mastery: Weapon Master (yo dawg?) - Increases the damage of Weapon Strike by n%.
• Headlong Rush.
• Colossus Smash.
• Something similar to BzR that can be used to generate a stack of OP when charges are low. Low OP stacks particularly at the start of combat are an issue.

Has been a lot of fun to make this so far.


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Warning - Turn your sound down before opening it up - I'm an idiot and uploaded a version without the sounds for SB/Cleave taken out. They're maybe a bit on the loud side.
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Original Sim - http://bit.ly/1CuS5eO

Updated Sim - http://bit.ly/1IfZy5i

Read through the thread to see an explanation to the changes.
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[Crisius]

I like the concept. I'm glad people are still throwing around ideas.

[Archimtiros]

It's a good concept but a couple things that stand out to me:

First off, it really feels like you are trying overly hard to play to nostalgia and please everyone by throwing their favorite abilities back into the mix.

Overpower, Opportunity Strike (aka Heroic Strike) and Slam are very redundant. It seems to me that you could easily just roll all of those abilities into (insert most pleasing name here) OP and allow it to be used more often to compensate. Additionally, you could change the charge generation over to Mortal Strike instead of Deep Wounds ticks, as that gets messy with multi-targets (eg Taste for Blood-Rend). That way you create a flowing rotation between Mortal Strike -> OP -> Weapon Strike, but most importantly it is completely player controlled, and not subject to the whims of a DoT, which can be upset when targets die, go immune, etc. It would also eliminate a rather insignificant damage source, allowing our actual hits to be slightly stronger.

I like your idea for Weapon Strikes, but it would require major change to the way talents work, and only for Arms. It also has potential balancing aspects (assuming the talent tier isn't resuffled) when you considering using Dragon Roar for AoE or Shockwave for stuns. Either you end up with using the utility way too often, not not being able to use it when you need to because it is gated by this charge mechanic.

Suggestion: I would leave the talents as they are and replace Weapon Strikes: Storm Bolt with Weapon Strikes: Execute (can work out the subtleties of sub 20% later, probably something easy like 1 cast allows Execute sub 20% instead of 3). This would work Execute into the main rotation, allowing it to be the heavy hit it is billed as. It would probably even work with Sudden Death without too much issue either.

Questions concerning Weapon Strikes: Cleave as well. Why two AoE buttons with a power imbalance? What does Cleave do differently than Whirlwind? If it is only supposed to be the major source of the AoE damage, what keeps Whirlwind from feeling underpowered like it does currently, wherein we spam it 3x as much as any other ability but it does only a fraction of the damage?

Suggestion: I would try swapping Whirlwind -> Cleave with Whirlwind -> Execute as well, but allow that Execute to cleave to a nearby target similar to Meat Cleaver. The difference is that now you are trading extra rage/lower ST (by using WW over OP) but you are gaining cleave damage and saving a key bind. You'll still abuse WW for mass AoE, but will work in Execute as well to keep up high ST and cleave damage, since from looking at your model, it seems like Sweeping Strikes is gone.

Other Questions:
How do you see Colossus Smash fitting in?
What purpose do you see Deadly Calm filling (that couldn't be tweaked by adjusting the stack cost of Weapon Strikes)?
Are you worried about the cooldown stacking issues, or is your intent to make Arms a cooldown driven powerhouse (aligning BB, DC & Reck every 1-3m). Would Anger Management reduce the CD of Deadly Calm to help it align with other reduced CDs?



I'm sorry if this sounds overly critical. I'm not trying to shit on your parade, only give a detailed analysis and feedback. I really do like the concept you've laid out, I just feel that it's trying too hard to have a little bit of everyone's favorite everything, instead of standing on it's own.

[Kumqatninja]

I love it! I've had an idea of a rotation where the order or type of fillers you use change the last move in the rotation to do a specific thing. I always thought it might sound to much like rogue's combos and finishers so I never suggested it. This seems very similar, while still being unique. I can see a rotation like this being very fun to play, while also having a high skill cap if done correctly.

I don't think it necessarily has to be a warrior rotation though. Something like this always stood out as a martial artist style of rotation, or something that could be used in a new class, whenever that may be.

[Deleted]

It's not shitting on my parade at all, I really do appreciate you taking the time to have a read though my post/look at the sim and to be fair those are perfectly valid criticisms which genuinely address the issues and offer some good solutions.
Have mercy.

Throwing that many abilities into the mix was more of an effort to make the whole theme work but it does need refining and I'll concede that Slam and Whirlwind in particular are redundant plus having the charges for OP come from MS is a much better idea. Still feels like there needs to be something between Mortal Strike -> Weapon Strike that is more than just OP which is where Slam/WW came in originally. Currently in the design/sim the only you enable a Weapon Strike is by doing the combo (e.g. OP-WW-WW) in that exact order, bit rigid I'll concede.

This is mostly why there are two AoE buttons with the power balance you mentioned - having weaker filler moves whos only purpose is to build towards a hard, heavy hitting attack. Thats the only function Slam/WW have which interacts with the rest of the design.

Agree with Weapon Strikes: Execute although I'm not 100% sure what you mean with Whirlwind -> Cleave with Whirlwind.


Other Q's:

How do you see Colossus Smash fitting in?
- Was more of an afterthought, right now it doesn't fit in very intuitively.

What purpose do you see Deadly Calm filling (that couldn't be tweaked by adjusting the stack cost of Weapon Strikes)?
Right now OP-WW-WW changes Weapon Strike into Cleave with one charge - after that charge is used Weapon Strike moves back to it's default state and you have to go through the process of another OP-WW-WW to use Cleave again. The design of Deadly Calm is to allow three uses of Cleave (or Weapon Strike: Execute?) before Weapon Strike moves back to its default state (I apologise if this is a slightly tedious explanation).

This leads into the next question - yes it is something I would have reduced by anger management. Having Arms as a cooldown orientated spec would be something that I would be a fan of although I can understand why it would possibly be off putting for others. Deadly Calm as it is at the moment seemed like a good fit for a relatively unique and new CD.


@Crisius/Kumqat, thanks guys. I'm curious if anyone has had much of a chance to play the sim? Being an executable it's understandable if you're wary about it coming from a random Internet Stranger.

[Archimtiros]

It's not shitting on my parade at all, I really do appreciate you taking the time to have a read though my post/look at the sim and to be fair those are perfectly valid criticisms which genuinely address the issues and offer some good solutions.
Have mercy.

Throwing that many abilities into the mix was more of an effort to make the whole theme work but it does need refining and I'll concede that Slam and Whirlwind in particular are redundant plus having the charges for OP come from MS is a much better idea. Still feels like there needs to be something between Mortal Strike -> Weapon Strike that is more than just OP which is where Slam/WW came in originally. Currently in the design/sim the only you enable a Weapon Strike is by doing the combo (e.g. OP-WW-WW) in that exact order, bit rigid I'll concede.

This is mostly why there are two AoE buttons with the power balance you mentioned - having weaker filler moves whos only purpose is to build towards a hard, heavy hitting attack. Thats the only function Slam/WW have which interacts with the rest of the design.

Agree with Weapon Strikes: Execute although I'm not 100% sure what you mean with Whirlwind -> Cleave with Whirlwind.

Meaning allow Whirlwind to ramp up Weapon Strike separately from OP, but both proc Execute. The difference being when you do it with Whirlwind, it causes Execute to cleave (think similar to Meat Cleaver for Fury), instead of only hitting one target as OP would.

Of course this scenario only works in conjunction with my other suggestions, which is probably where I lost you. You'd essentially have two rotations: Mortal Strike -> OP (x#) -> Execute and Mortal Strike -> Whirlwind (x#) -> Execute that cleaves.
The difference being that Whirlwind hits weaker than OP and costs more rage (to make up for the fact that it deals AoE damage and causes Execute to cleave). This would ideally allow you to tune up the damage of Whirlwind as the primary source of AoE damage, instead of gating all the major damage into Cleave.

It could potentially use another button though. A 3 button rotation isn't much. Colossus Smash could fill that role, or something like Rend. I'd just tend to shy away from something like Slam unless you can find a compelling reason to use the button outside of "it does damage". Ideally, every spell should have a reason or mechanic to it beyond simply "cause you have nothing else to do". (eg: all the interactivity between Mage or Rogue spells).

[nowish]

I've been playing alot of TERA lately and I wouldnt mind a combo rotation system like this for arms. Is the "weapon strike" unsuable in it's default state and did you have a time limit in mind for the combos? Thinking of movement heavy fights where u might start the combo , then need to run for x amount of seconds, would you need to start it all over again or would it just continue where you left off?

edit: ok I tried your sim thing. First of all, fu for putting that loud ass sound on stormbolt, almost shat myself. Seems alright I guess, but I dont really see how the opportunity strike thing would fit into it and what does slam interact with? is it just a hard hitting ability or would you combo it together with op to make some other strike or what did you have in mind there?

[Deleted]

I've been playing alot of TERA lately and I wouldnt mind a combo rotation system like this for arms. Is the "weapon strike" unsuable in it's default state and did you have a time limit in mind for the combos? Thinking of movement heavy fights where u might start the combo , then need to run for x amount of seconds, would you need to start it all over again or would it just continue where you left off?

edit: ok I tried your sim thing. First of all, fu for putting that loud ass sound on stormbolt, almost shat myself. Seems alright I guess, but I dont really see how the opportunity strike thing would fit into it and what does slam interact with? is it just a hard hitting ability or would you combo it together with op to make some other strike or what did you have in mind there?

Sorry about the sounds, kept meaning to take them out before uploading the whole thing (they'll be taken out after I update a couple of things).

Weapon Strike is unusable/empty in its default state, and currently there is no time limit for you to complete a combo so to answer your question in a movement heavy fight you would simply continue where you left off. However at the moment Mortal Strike clears any combo you have running (it will empty the three combo bars above the rage bar) but it should still let you fire off Weapon Strike if you have activated WS:Stormbolt / WS:Cleave.

Opportunity Strike is as Archi pointed out pretty much Heroic Strike in a not so cunning disguise. At the moment rage generation is set deliberately high with decent income from both auto attacks and Mortal Strike. Each cast of OS increases the damage of your next Weapon Strike (SB and Cleave) by 20% (max 40%), the intention being to make it a functional rage dump that feels satisfying to press because it will make the main source of your damage (Wep Strike) hit that much harder.

The original idea was to make Slam combo together with OP/WW to make another strike/a buff that you maintain/[insert interesting thing here], but I haven't come up with anything compelling so far. Just finishing off a few updates to the sim at the moment and I've just taken Slam out for the time being.

- - - Updated - - -

Meaning allow Whirlwind to ramp up Weapon Strike separately from OP, but both proc Execute. The difference being when you do it with Whirlwind, it causes Execute to cleave (think similar to Meat Cleaver for Fury), instead of only hitting one target as OP would.

Of course this scenario only works in conjunction with my other suggestions, which is probably where I lost you. You'd essentially have two rotations: Mortal Strike -> OP (x#) -> Execute and Mortal Strike -> Whirlwind (x#) -> Execute that cleaves.
The difference being that Whirlwind hits weaker than OP and costs more rage (to make up for the fact that it deals AoE damage and causes Execute to cleave). This would ideally allow you to tune up the damage of Whirlwind as the primary source of AoE damage, instead of gating all the major damage into Cleave.

It could potentially use another button though. A 3 button rotation isn't much. Colossus Smash could fill that role, or something like Rend. I'd just tend to shy away from something like Slam unless you can find a compelling reason to use the button outside of "it does damage". Ideally, every spell should have a reason or mechanic to it beyond simply "cause you have nothing else to do". (eg: all the interactivity between Mage or Rogue spells).

Change a few things up:

• Deep Wounds removed.
• Mortal Strike cooldown should be properly set to 6 seconds.
• Mortal Strike now generates 2 stacks of OP
• WW now consumes OP stacks.

There is now only 2 fillers per Weapon Strike and WW consumes charges of OP. I wanted to add something (possibly a retooled Sweeping Strikes) that switches between OP/WW on the same keybind but that's a bit more work and something I can add in later. Currently the new sim should function like this:

• MS -> OP x2 -> Weapon Strike: Execute
• MS -> WW x2 -> Weapon Strike: Cleave

Doesn't actually feel too bad to play, although like you said a 3 button rotation has hardly any meat on the bones.

Link to new Sim: http://bit.ly/1CuS5eO
Link to Game Maker files for anyone interested: http://bit.ly/1ElxYEx

[Archimtiros]

Doesn't actually feel too bad to play, although like you said a 3 button rotation has hardly any meat on the bones.

Link to new Sim: http://bit.ly/1CuS5eO
Link to Game Maker files for anyone interested: http://bit.ly/1ElxYEx

I agree, though I think starting simple and then throwing in fillers to flesh it out is usually an easier approach. Could work in Colossus Smash, though I don't know if its strictly necessary with this setup, since you've already got the "combo" theme set up without it. Rend could be another option, though preferably without the TfB rage generation trickery.

If no Colossus Smash, I'd like to see an Armor Penetration Mastery! I think it'd be very thematic and accomplish the same goal as a flat +% damage.

[Celarent]

Just saw this! Props (thanks for them in kind!).

Thoughts: see if you can get a little more tension between generation and spending that's independent of the off-GCD attack.

[Deleted]

Just saw this! Props (thanks for them in kind!).

Thoughts: see if you can get a little more tension between generation and spending that's independent of the off-GCD attack.

Added this to the Sim:

Slam
5 Rage / Sec
Activates Slam. Deactivating Slam causes you to Slam the target for n% weapon damage + 50% of the damage your abilities caused while Slam was active. Drains 5 rage per second while active.

Mechanics for this would have to change in some way as it could well end up being horrifically overpowered but the basic idea is there. Could be adapted to be a replacement for Colossus Smash (i.e. have the period that slam is "active" for last a flat 6 seconds) that would open up the possibility of having ArPen as the mastery.

Link to updated Sim: http://bit.ly/1IfZy5i
Link to updated Game Maker files: http://bit.ly/1GMFQ3E

[Archimtiros]

Added this to the Sim:

Slam
5 Rage / Sec
Activates Slam. Deactivating Slam causes you to Slam the target for n% weapon damage + 50% of the damage your abilities caused while Slam was active. Drains 5 rage per second while active.

Mechanics for this would have to change in some way as it could well end up being horrifically overpowered but the basic idea is there. Could be adapted to be a replacement for Colossus Smash (i.e. have the period that slam is "active" for last a flat 6 seconds) that would open up the possibility of having ArPen as the mastery.

Link to updated Sim: http://bit.ly/1IfZy5i
Link to updated Game Maker files: http://bit.ly/1GMFQ3E

That's actually really cool, but I wouldn't include it in the same toolkit as Colossus Smash. I wonder too how well it would work with the other mechanics you've already suggested. It feels slightly disconnected to me, and may actually be something more in tune with Fury (going "wild" and burning all rage, perhaps with a speed modifier instead of a damage one).

Still, a cool concept nonetheless. It reminds me of the ideas we threw around back in WoD alpha about toggleable stance based combat styles; having a Sweeping Strikes stance, a Recklessness stance, etc.

[Kuhglocken]

Hi there,

made an acount for this ;-)

I like the idea very much; here's my suggestion.

I could imagine a System with several Combos, as you said, but as follows:

You have 3 "baseline" abilities: MS, OP/WW and WS. WS changes based on fillers used.

Rotation is MS -> 2x or 3x filler -> WS.

2x OP: WS-Execute usable without ragecost.
1x OP, 1x WW: WS-Execute with 50% cleave to a second and 25% cleave to a third target usable, but with ragecost.
2x WW: WS-Cleave usable. Hits all Targets in an arc of 180° in front of you.

One cold also make this more detailed, with 3 fillers instead of 2. The idea is, the more ST attacks you use, the better WS gets for ST damage, and vise versa for AOE. Cleave is settled in between, with the combination of OP and WW.

I think this would add a lot of depth. You would have to adapt to the amount of targets there are; and with the current boss design, it changes a lot.

Another thing I miss applying Deep Wounds via Thunder Clap

The only bad thing I see is that it could be a bit boring for pure ST fights; probably a proc somewhere? Sudden Death Comes to mind...

What do you guys think?


PS: sorry for potential bad English

[Deleted]

I'd probably play this over Fury tbh. It looks like it could be fun!

[Artunias]

Definitely cool, too bad Blizzard will continue to shove their ass of a spec down our throats.