WoD - A Missed Opportunity And Confusion

[Deleted]

Big dev team doesn't mean fastest dev time. Considere this:

_ Small mmorpg with only 5 dev. Gary has a cool idea so he spend the week coding it. Meanwhile Sam worked on some extra quests and Alex create a new 3D pet. Next week everything is ready (more or less buggy)

_ Now we have WoW with like 1000 dev. Gary has a cool idea... He must talks to his superior from the dungeon team. Next week, during the dev teams meeting, the dungeon team lead talks about Gary's idea. The lead designer agree it may be interesting: "Ok, lets put it on the calendar, we'll discuss it in detail april 28th". 2 weeks later they do so... Spent the whole day reviewing the pro and con... Then send the idea to the lore departement to check if it doens't break it. Then they a sent a request to the art departement for specific models. Then bug squad spend a week on it. Etc. Etc. 6 month later Gary's original idea ... Is finaly canned because another stuff from another team isn't compatible with it.

Sadly it's like that in lots of big business.

[shadowstep]

Wow has its own style for graphics, the old world was updated with cataclysm, blizzard doesnt do mobile games if you exclude the port of hearthstone, they arent covering anything up by lying about their developement team. infact they are open about most of the changes to wow, yet people take it as conspiracy and lies because of reasons.

Overwatch isnt finished, its not even hit public testing so probably not a cashcow as its not even being sold yet.... Warlords has given room for everyone to get properly started before the next chain of quests, raids, events and features which hits with 6.2. Mists and cata did it aswell, i dont see what the issue is with smaller patches between raid tiers. We got to play highmaul out before we entered the foundry, and we will get to play that out before we hit Tanaan jungle in 6.2. (the story present in the live game even tells it flat out, Grommash is in Tanaan jungle and the iron horde is.... do the quests :P

Take a break if the suspense of whats next is unbearing Blizzard does more things and do them faster cause their community whines and feel entitled like spoiled babies at times :P They sure as day arent lying.

One of the most ridiculous posts i ever read on MMO champions in all this years i visit this site.... what a bunch of crap

[Varabently]

This... actually makes a lot of sense.

I love it when I bring up that BC had bosses like Gruul and Mag in addition to the tier raids and people are like "but we have solo bosses there is drov and rukhmar" but back in BC we had Gruul, Mag AND Doomlord Kazzak and whoever the other world boss was.

In short: I agree, there are so many less dungeons. Less raids. Less bosses. And yet we're consistently told that the team is bigger and more experienced.

This is sort of confusing for sure. I'm fine with just having one raid to do, but is logging in to do garrisons once a day then raiding in the evening how blizz wants pve to go? There's no incentive to do anything else as far as I know. Gold rains from the sky, so I don't need to farm old raids or do anything else. In some ways, I'd rather the game take longer and be more difficult so I would have a reason to log in. Right now I'm running an alternate game because WoW just doesn't have anything for me to do. The raids are fun, but BRF is going to get old pretty quick if we don't hear anything about a new raid for a few months. A new raid is at least 7 weeks out (since PTR for patches are typically out for 6 weeks), but if 6.2 is the last patch for this expansion, are they really going to release it so soon?

I dunno, I kind of agree with the OP on the confusion part. We were sold the line of "our dev team is bigger than ever" yet we don't see the fruits of that. I'd rather had more/better content than new character models. If that was truly the tradeoff, it was the worst decision ever.

Edit: I see people complaining about the number of dungeons. What's the point of them making 10, 15, 20 dungeons if there's no reason to run them? The real problem with 5 mans is there's zero reason to ever run them. You can just use boe/crafted gear to leapfrog normals/heroics and go right into LFR.

[Bad Ashe]

You know..like everyone wanted the glorious TBC times back and wanted housing and Blizzard just had to do it and put a twist on it.

the only difference is people didnt want another BC they just wanted the quality of content from BC to come back, actual reasons to spend time in every zone for rewards of your choosing. You didnt NEED to grind those factions, but the reward and satisfaction was worth it. Sadly garrisons is the OPPOSITE of this. Spending 90% of your game time in the garrison only makes it worse.

[L3fty]

I think most people have realised by now that this simply won't be the case. It ends with 6.2.
Why? because Blizzard gets money by selling expansions, not patches. 60$ expansions every year over free patches is a no-brainer to them.

No doubt very true from a marketing stand point. However, and I speak only for myself here, WoD has been such a monumental flop from what I was expecting that I for one will not be paying a cent/penny/euro/gold more on any future expansion until I see some sign of change.

I feel ripped off from the initial cost of the game, let alone the sub fee whizzing out of my bank account every month. Before you say 'just quit' I am getting enough enjoyment out of Mythic Raiding to make it just about worthwhile, but would I hand over $40+ for another expansion? You must be kidding. If this is at all a trend with other players then Blizz might regret the chuck-out-half-baked-products model. There is something seriously wrong with their Dev team, nobody in their right mind can deny that.

[iriecolorado]

The leveling aspect of WoD was a hit.

Not for me. I loathe that hand holding, everything on rails, no deviation or customization in how/where you level. Don't read the quest text, no thinking, just accept and go to the yellow spot on your map. Lather, rinse, repeat.

- - - Updated - - -

I am getting enough enjoyment out of Mythic Raiding to make it just about worthwhile

And that's why they feel like they can rip you off. As long as they put out a raid-or-die loot treadmill, people will continue to fork over cash.

[SlippyCheeze]

And that's why they feel like they can rip you off. As long as they put out a raid-or-die loot treadmill, people will continue to fork over cash.

I think you mistake "they feel like they should support players who enjoy this" for "rip you off". Sorry you don't enjoy the game any more though.

[iriecolorado]

I think you mistake "they feel like they should support players who enjoy this" for "rip you off". Sorry you don't enjoy the game any more though.

Yeah, I've felt more and more like they're going to stop developing any content outside of raids.

[SlippyCheeze]

Yeah, I've felt more and more like they're going to stop developing any content outside of raids.

I'd have to say that the Timeless Isle experiment, and WoD, seem like they point in literally the exact opposite direction of this to me, with the focus on world content stuff being TI-alike rather than just 90-100 questing. I'm not disagreeing that you feel that way, it just doesn't seem to sync up with my experience.

I wonder if part of this is that Blizzard now have a cleaner progression path through various levels of content, and that makes people feel like things that stop being totally relevant is a mistake, rather than part of a deliberate design -- eg: the theory that dungeons become irrelevant the same way that the level 91 mobs in SMV/FFR become irrelevant, rather than anything else.

[Sickjen]

Well I guess we could start saying that this expac is worse than Cata.

Let's not go there yet.

[SlippyCheeze]

Let's not go there yet.

No, no, it's totally time for "the best XPAC EVAR!!!11!one!!" to move on again. It was BC, then WotLK, so next in line is Cata. Which means that the current xpac gets to be worse than it. Next xpac it will be time for MoP to be the bestest one ever if we stay on schedule, but maybe Cata gets double-duty as "when Blizzard last knew how to make good games" with two one year xpacs or something.

[bryroo]

I think you have to be pretty naive to take Blizzard at their word considering their track record for the past two years.

[HordeSchmorde]

I was disgusted by the leveling in WoD for the most part. Storywise, it started out all right in SMV, but quality wise, all throughout the leveling process, a ton of quests were replaced with "Go here and kill this number of enemies just because there's a sword icon on the map", a lot of phasing was bugged and showed later parts in phases before you even completed the first parts, and past SMV, everything just felt disconected. The story would jump ahead 5 steps and it always felt like there were connectors missing in between. Also, the story itself degraded progressively after SMV.

Gorgorond: what the fuck did that have to do with Orcs and Draenei, except the last 1%? This is WARLORDS of DRAENOR not EMERALD DREAM LITE.

Nagrand: fucking SOO lite edition, mandatory expansion Thrall-Metzen moment.

Talador: something something mandatory Legion foreshadowing at some point, fuck me if I can remember anything else of note besides Yrel being retarded and throwing her weapon at Blackahand's head then realizing how incompetent she is because she almost got her neck broken. Very short and sweet reference to the first Death Knight being created.

Frozen place: who the fuck knows, because now an entire region is restriced to either Ally/Horde. Want to experience it? Level an entire character to lvl 90, or even better, pay us the full price of an expansion to lvl to 90 instantly and experience it faster!

Spires: only good (great, actually) lore zone past the starting zone. If the rest of the expansion was about the Arrakoa, I would actually be happy.

[Deleted]

An MMO isnt a game like FIFA or CoD or any other type of game that gets a release every year and should not be played like that, IMO

And what exactly is a difference? If you having fun with the game, does it matter is it MMO, FPS or card game?
Dont be a slave to gentre definitions - times change, world change, gentres change, people change when growing old...nothing is the same as it used to be

[trevoroxx]

And what exactly is a difference? If you having fun with the game, does it matter is it MMO, FPS or card game?
Dont be a slave to gentre definitions - times change, world change, gentres change, people change when growing old...nothing is the same as it used to be

Mmos are meant to be long grindy adventures where you build attachment to a character/unit.

CoD and FIFA are pick up and play whenever u want, you are at Max level already so you can just do the content.

WoD became like CoD and FIFA as there is no long grindy adventure to build attachment to your character (not just questing/leveling but running dungeons and gearing up too) you can just log in any night of the week and do your raid (you are already geared for it) do your BG or arena (you have had Max PvP gear for months) and log out.

Wow is has turned into an online adventure game. If you don't see the difference or you like the change you are what killed the game, the genre will always exist as there will always be platers who enjoy that type of grindy attachment but its going to take time for either wow to recover or something to properly eclipse it.

Nothing being the same as it used to be isn't an excuse. But I can see the point that it may be incredibly difficult to make a game that's been out for 10+ years a fun and fresh experience. Look at the Simpsons, look at pokemon, as time goes on these entertainment franchises feel the need to adopt what's current rather than stick to what made them.popular in the first place..

[Gadzooks]

I was disgusted by the leveling in WoD for the most part. Storywise, it started out all right in SMV, but quality wise, all throughout the leveling process, a ton of quests were replaced with "Go here and kill this number of enemies just because there's a sword icon on the map", a lot of phasing was bugged and showed later parts in phases before you even completed the first parts, and past SMV, everything just felt disconected. The story would jump ahead 5 steps and it always felt like there were connectors missing in between. Also, the story itself degraded progressively after SMV.

Gorgorond: what the fuck did that have to do with Orcs and Draenei, except the last 1%? This is WARLORDS of DRAENOR not EMERALD DREAM LITE.

Nagrand: fucking SOO lite edition, mandatory expansion Thrall-Metzen moment.

Talador: something something mandatory Legion foreshadowing at some point, fuck me if I can remember anything else of note besides Yrel being retarded and throwing her weapon at Blackahand's head then realizing how incompetent she is because she almost got her neck broken. Very short and sweet reference to the first Death Knight being created.

Frozen place: who the fuck knows, because now an entire region is restriced to either Ally/Horde. Want to experience it? Level an entire character to lvl 90, or even better, pay us the full price of an expansion to lvl to 90 instantly and experience it faster!

Spires: only good (great, actually) lore zone past the starting zone. If the rest of the expansion was about the Arrakoa, I would actually be happy.

Even the Spires were a bit janky, with how right in the middle of it...all of a sudden it's goblins, and Taylor's garrison. And then it's back to the main plot - which is confusing as hell.

I'm inclined to go with what people have said, that Gorgrond was redone, and the majority of the orc content ripped out. What's left is hurried and incomplete. The story of the Botanica is shoddily done, which is a shame, because it's a GOOD story - and there should be more of it in Nagrand, where the growths from the sea are spreading onto the sides of Highmaul.

Before I quit playing, I took my Rogue out to Highmaul. Like Karabor, why did they build a vast actual city, that we can't get into, and just has a portal stuck in the front? Because I think we were supposed to get content there, and they cut it. The transition from the events of Nagrand to the Highmaul raid are jarring - clearly there's story missing. I think there was a whole bunch after the Thrall cutscene, that led into the raid. Same for Telador - why build Shattrath, if you're not going to use it? The same people who said it was too much work to put NPCs into Karabor and Frostfire built 3 main cities - the Iron Docks, Shattrath, and Highmaul...that just sit there. Uh uh. Not buying the "too much work" story anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

Mmos are meant to be long grindy adventures where you build attachment to a character/unit.

CoD and FIFA are pick up and play whenever u want, you are at Max level already so you can just do the content.

WoD became like CoD and FIFA as there is no long grindy adventure to build attachment to your character (not just questing/leveling but running dungeons and gearing up too) you can just log in any night of the week and do your raid (you are already geared for it) do your BG or arena (you have had Max PvP gear for months) and log out.

Wow is has turned into an online adventure game. If you don't see the difference or you like the change you are what killed the game, the genre will always exist as there will always be platers who enjoy that type of grindy attachment but its going to take time for either wow to recover or something to properly eclipse it.

Nothing being the same as it used to be isn't an excuse. But I can see the point that it may be incredibly difficult to make a game that's been out for 10+ years a fun and fresh experience. Look at the Simpsons, look at pokemon, as time goes on these entertainment franchises feel the need to adopt what's current rather than stick to what made them.popular in the first place..

Well, they were doing pretty well up until the end of MoP. You don't just run out of the ability to make fun overnight.

[Thage]

I'd have to say that the Timeless Isle experiment, and WoD, seem like they point in literally the exact opposite direction of this to me, with the focus on world content stuff being TI-alike rather than just 90-100 questing. I'm not disagreeing that you feel that way, it just doesn't seem to sync up with my experience.

Except none of it's worth doing. The chests and rare mobs take all of two weeks of focused gameplay, if you feel like it's worth the time dealing with shitty terrain and shoddy jumping puzzles for a few toys and gear inferior to the blues you can get for losing BGs. The rare mobs that aren't one-and-done toy-pinatas drop lazy mount recolors that you can get for 1/100th the effort just doing Stables for those same couple weeks instead. Reps don't offer anything of value but more tabards to bloat the already-bloated banks of tabard collectors, yet more lazy mount recolors, a few items that should've been toys (because who the fuck is going to waste a trinket slot on that crap?), and two factions--both of which require a Trading Post--offer transmog, only one of which offers a full set and only to plate-wearers. They completely lobotomized the same world content they spent so much time explaining needed flight to be removed from because it was so awesome guys!!11111 (because god forbid we have reputations that matter worth a shit for non-raiders to start gearing in, like in BC and Wrath). Then, for good measure, they went ahead and lobotomized dungeons and hid them behind an asinine achievement that is neither difficult to obtain nor remotely relevant to the actual DPS experience in any PvE content I've ever seen in ten years of playing the game and does little to nothing to prepare DPS for playing in a group environment where everyone is expected to coordinate with or without speaking to one another. It's literally faster to ignore all the 'amazing'(ly pointless) Timeless Grind-style world endgame in favor of losing BGs for a couple hours and getting a full set of 620 blues to start LFRing in.

I wonder if part of this is that Blizzard now have a cleaner progression path through various levels of content, and that makes people feel like things that stop being totally relevant is a mistake, rather than part of a deliberate design -- eg: the theory that dungeons become irrelevant the same way that the level 91 mobs in SMV/FFR become irrelevant, rather than anything else.

Well, that's a given. The creative lead, Alex Afrasiabi, is notorious for behaving like only raiders deserve any relevant endgame. He was notorious for espousing this viewpoint on the EverQuest forums as Furor, as well as his generally-entitled behavior and looking down his nose at the game's casual and solo players.

No, no, it's totally time for "the best XPAC EVAR!!!11!one!!" to move on again. It was BC, then WotLK, so next in line is Cata. Which means that the current xpac gets to be worse than it. Next xpac it will be time for MoP to be the bestest one ever if we stay on schedule, but maybe Cata gets double-duty as "when Blizzard last knew how to make good games" with two one year xpacs or something.

Cata was trash, but at least it had something for solo/small-group players to do that was worth their time investment in each patch rather than half-assing it and babying the midcore raiders at the expense of everyone below them.

[SlippyCheeze]

Before I quit playing, I took my Rogue out to Highmaul. Like Karabor, why did they build a vast actual city, that we can't get into, and just has a portal stuck in the front? Because I think we were supposed to get content there, and they cut it. The transition from the events of Nagrand to the Highmaul raid are jarring - clearly there's story missing. I think there was a whole bunch after the Thrall cutscene, that led into the raid. Same for Telador - why build Shattrath, if you're not going to use it? The same people who said it was too much work to put NPCs into Karabor and Frostfire built 3 main cities - the Iron Docks, Shattrath, and Highmaul...that just sit there. Uh uh. Not buying the "too much work" story anymore.

Well, aside from anything else, because you can see the city from the air. Engineering portal drops you far, far above the ground in the zone, and a glider will happily take you within visual range of it -- plus the feather can let you glider around it.

If they didn't put the buildings there it would be kind of like ToES back in MoP: a portal into the side of a mountain that leads to an area open to the sky ... which isn't visible from above. I mean, logically it would be nestled in there, but if you go looking you can't find it. It's actually kind of jarring, where most of the other raids at least make an effort (eg: hide SoO under the value, or place it in bits where you kind of know that other people are, but at least match the "real" world layout.

So, yeah, it's like the way the troll dungeon was put into the southern jungle of the Eastern Kingdoms, empty but structured, or AQ is an actual zone you can fly above: set dressing that costs relatively little, since the structures are sculpted for the raid, used to make the world seem less like a hollywood facade and more like a real thing.

[Kanadei]

I see people complaining about the number of dungeons. What's the point of them making 10, 15, 20 dungeons if there's no reason to run them? The real problem with 5 mans is there's zero reason to ever run them. You can just use boe/crafted gear to leapfrog normals/heroics and go right into LFR.

Actually, they are both real problems.

I fully agree that 5 mans are completely undervalued and useless at that moment, but that doesn't negate the fact that we have literally a third of the dungeons we had in an expansion like Burning Crusade.

[SlippyCheeze]

Except none of it's worth doing. The chests and rare mobs take all of two weeks of focused gameplay, if you feel like it's worth the time dealing with shitty terrain and shoddy jumping puzzles for a few toys and gear inferior to the blues you can get for losing BGs. The rare mobs that aren't one-and-done toy-pinatas drop lazy mount recolors that you can get for 1/100th the effort just doing Stables for those same couple weeks instead. Reps don't offer anything of value but more tabards to bloat the already-bloated banks of tabard collectors, yet more lazy mount recolors, a few items that should've been toys (because who the fuck is going to waste a trinket slot on that crap?), and two factions--both of which require a Trading Post--offer transmog, only one of which offers a full set and only to plate-wearers.

I feel like a broken record: just because you don't *like* the content doesn't make it "not content", it just makes it "not to your taste content". Which is cool. Wildstar is ===> that way, FFXIV is <==== that way, and you can probably fish another dozen MMOs out of the pool without much effort. You don't *have* to play WoW.

So, yeah, Blizzard are headed in a direction that you don't like, because they have their numbers and player behaviour which says that this works for people. Sorry you don't enjoy it any more.

Well, that's a given. The creative lead, Alex Afrasiabi, is notorious for behaving like only raiders deserve any relevant endgame. He was notorious for espousing this viewpoint on the EverQuest forums as Furor, as well as his generally-entitled behavior and looking down his nose at the game's casual and solo players.

I thought we were still blaming GhostCrawler for WoD being terrible, because the design was set in stone and code well before he stepped out and Alex replaced him. So the *next* xpac is the one where Alex is the sole person responsible for doing everthing?

Which probably explains why it takes so long, too, because even if they were super hard working dudes they are just, like, one person, cutting all that content themselves.

Seriously, though, I *really* recommend that you find another game to play if that is your perception. Unless the numbers agree with you (hint: not so far), *and* you believe that Blizzard will listen to them (hint: they didn't when they did this with TI, why would they now?), and that they can overcome Alex, it isn't gonna get better no matter how much you complain on a fan forum.

*cough* not that I actually agree with your assessment, but I already said all of that in my previous post.