6.2 Death Knight Changes Discussion

[Maybach]

Yeah it could have been done in a better way, but we were way too high and Skull even said he didn't fully update his APL's and as such didn't foresee DK's being as high as they got. Big whoop we got nerfed, we are still a fantastic class to play right now. So really, stop your complaining over nothing and be realistic about out position.

Thats the whole point, it could have been done in a different way, like recognising that the buffs would make the class OP in the first place instead of pissing players about yet again

I mean seriously is there no peer review of the data blizzard uses?

Simple peer review would have revealed the flawed data and prevented all of this crap

Pre 6.2 frost dks were a complete waste of time to play, these nerfs take us back to pre 6.2

I am pretty sure I saw something on skullflowers site about not bothering to play 2h frost at all

Top flight players who comprise a tiny minority of dks, with good opportunities to get BiS gear can probably survive these nerfs

Average players like myself, who comprise the majority, have just been screwed yet again

The impact of these nerfs on average players is far more devastating than it is on top flight progress raiders

We just got nerfed not only back to pre 6.2 but back to the stone age

It is even more disgusting when you compare how dks are being dealt with compared to other classes that are stupidly OP every bloody expansion and patch

No one can argue against nerfs for over powered classes, as long as it is a level playing field

The current situation is patently and obviously not a level playing field by any stretch of the imagination

The realism of the dk situation is that we have gone from top, or near top dps to somewhere near the middle, and, with the further nerfs in testing, we are just about to get flushed down the crapper

Hows that for realism

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Okay mister perfect, you never make mistakes. We get it. Now go play your flavour of the month class and be quiet.
We aren't in a bad spot, whether you want to believe it or not.

I am sorry I have to ask, are you a complete idiot?

Perfect? Never make mistakes?

I stated clearly and unequivocably that I constantly try to improve my gameplay because, at best, I am an average player

You also really need to look up the meaning of the word sycophant

And we are not in a bad spot, its worse than it was though and we will be in a bad spot with the further nerfs in testing

Now you be quiet until you learn to read what people actually type, not what you want to think they have typed

[LickMeh]

You act like someone killed your dog. Calm down.

And which further nerfs in testing? There currently aren't any other nerfs lined up. The latest trinket nerfs are already on live servers.

[Skullflower]

Death Knights are fine- more than fine even. If you're still rocking T17 gear, then it sucks to be you. Surprise! Tuning isn't based on last tier's set of gear.

These nerfs do not take us back to pre-6.2. We didn't have 100% HB cleave, we didn't have 100% MotFW, and HB is doing higher damage than it did in 6.1. Frost is in a great spot, as is Unholy.

Learn to play.

[Maybach]

You act like someone killed your dog. Calm down.

And which further nerfs in testing? There currently aren't any other nerfs lined up. The latest trinket nerfs are already on live servers.

As I said I got back to fight and went through the thread and there was nothing to indicate that the trinket nerfs were live

i've just checked the battle.net patch 6.2 hot fixes and the only thing I can see is for June 30th:

Items
Mindscythe of the Legion and Element-Infused Knuckles now have weapon DPS that is appropriate for caster weapons.
[In testing] Reaper's Harvest chance to trigger reduced by 60% for Unholy Death Knights.
[In testing] Discordant Chorus damage done by Fel Cleave reduced by 50%.

Simply going by what blizzard posted

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Death Knights are fine- more than fine even. If you're still rocking T17 gear, then it sucks to be you. Surprise! Tuning isn't based on last tier's set of gear.

These nerfs do not take us back to pre-6.2. We didn't have 100% HB cleave, we didn't have 100% MotFW, and HB is doing higher damage than it did in 6.1. Frost is in a great spot, as is Unholy.

Learn to play.

Learn to sim!

[LickMeh]

You clearly didn't go through the thread well enough because it has been stated a few times in the last couple of pages.


You really don't seem to understand all the work people like Skullflower do for us. You should be really grateful for all what he has done and continues to do for us.
Please take your bad attitude elsewhere.

[Skullknight]

High level dk players who have gear funnelled to them them in progress raid teams are in a half decent position, average players like me are completely screwed

Gear doesn't make the player. The other DK in my guild (so sorry man) has 7 ilvl's on me and consistently get's his butt handed to him by me. If you feel average and are "getting sooooo screwed over" play your Mage again. I think it would take a load off your shoulders. DK's are fine atm. Not outstanding. Not amazing ballz. Fine. I'm never below top 3.

Learn to sim!

You are such a baby....dear lord. Did your vacation get cut short?

[Maybach]

You clearly didn't go through the thread well enough because it has been stated a few times in the last couple of pages.


You really don't seem to understand all the work people like Skullflower do for us. Please take your bad attitude elsewhere.

Oh I've seen the work and appreciate it and tried to learn from it

Your problem seems to be that you put people on pedestals and seem to think they are above criticism

Skullflower was very honest in admitting that the flawed sims were the reason for first the buffs, then the nerfs to dks

So big credit for that

Then you seem to think that no criticism should be applied in classical sycophant stylee

No one is beyond criticism especially for a mistake thats led to so much consternation from so many players

The fact is that blizzard relied on data with no apparent peer review that has left dk's far below where they were in less than a week of a major patch launch

Any reasonable person would have to agree that, once again, blizzard have handled the situation with their usual ham fisted approach

Sorry if you think pointing out the obvious, and its adverse impact on players qualifies as a bad attitude

Perhaps if you chose to engage in a meaningful debate instead of tawdry insults and flaming we would have had a more productive discussion

[Ragnirok]

I honestly don't understand. I don't think you will see any problems start to manifest until BiS gear comes around. I think DK's are still great for progression but god damn i wish they would buff up a trinket somewhere.

[RuneDK]

Death Knights are fine- more than fine even. If you're still rocking T17 gear, then it sucks to be you. Surprise! Tuning isn't based on last tier's set of gear.

These nerfs do not take us back to pre-6.2. We didn't have 100% HB cleave, we didn't have 100% MotFW, and HB is doing higher damage than it did in 6.1. Frost is in a great spot, as is Unholy.

Learn to play.

Based on what gear? Your sims are based on mythic BIS. It's not really fair to tell someone who probably won't get past x fight in mythic to learn to play when we don't know how the class performs in a Heroic profile. I can at least see where he's coming from, because most of us don't raid in high progression guilds.

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Gear doesn't make the player. The other DK in my guild (so sorry man) has 7 ilvl's on me and consistently get's his butt handed to him by me. If you feel average and are "getting sooooo screwed over" play your Mage again. I think it would take a load off your shoulders. DK's are fine atm. Not outstanding. Not amazing ballz. Fine. I'm never below top 3.



You are such a baby....dear lord. Did your vacation get cut short?

How you perform in your own guild is subjective. While his post comes off as if he's a massive whinebag his point is valid. Sims are based on Mythic BIS and dks look like they will be fine based on that...how about a heroic sim? Not to discredit Skullflower in the slightest because I appreciate what he does for this community, but you can't just make profiles for the minority of players. Yes we can all sim ourselves but some people don't get how to do it. I don't like his posts at all, but he does have a decent point.

[Saiyendra]

Based on what gear? Your sims are based on mythic BIS. It's not really fair to tell someone who probably won't get past x fight in mythic to learn to play when we don't know how the class performs in a Heroic profile. I can at least see where he's coming from, because most of us don't raid in high progression guilds.

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How you perform in your own guild is subjective. While his post comes off as if he's a massive whinebag his point is valid. Sims are based on Mythic BIS and dks look like they will be fine based on that...how about a heroic sim? Not to discredit Skullflower in the slightest because I appreciate what he does for this community, but you can't just make profiles for the minority of players. Yes we can all sim ourselves but some people don't get how to do it. I don't like his posts at all, but he does have a decent point.

If you don't raid in a high progression guild, then the issues of class balance don't even matter so much as your play in relation to that of the rest of the raid and the amount you can pad.

[Skullflower]

1. Recent Warcraftlogs statistics
2. Damage statistics for variety of percentiles in all raid difficulties
3. Damage comparisons for every encounter

Yep, we're dead.

[Maybach]

Gear doesn't make the player. The other DK in my guild (so sorry man) has 7 ilvl's on me and consistently get's his butt handed to him by me. If you feel average and are "getting sooooo screwed over" play your Mage again. I think it would take a load off your shoulders. DK's are fine atm. Not outstanding. Not amazing ballz. Fine. I'm never below top 3.



You are such a baby....dear lord. Did your vacation get cut short?

Totally agree about the gear, it doesn't make the player, and not all players are as gifted with skill as the top progressive raiders

Some people clearly have a gift for gameplay, the rest of us mere mortals have to slog at it a little harder to make up for the deficiency

My point is that access to BiS gear is not available to all and to those who do have access to it, it can be invaluable in off setting some of the effects of the more extreme nerfs on their particular class

As for the learn to sim comment, you really should see it in the vein it was meant in

Being told to "learn to play" by one of the top theory crafters, as well as a top flight player, in the game was uncalled for especially as I have repeatedly stated I am an average player who does try to improve there gameplay

So the "learn to sim" comment was a little bit of sarcasm at someone who clearly knows how to sim but got a couple wrong

I am sure he will be eternally grateful for you leaping to his defence however

Oh that was sarcasm too in case you missed it!

[RuneDK]

If you don't raid in a high progression guild, then the issues of class balance don't even matter so much as your play in relation to that of the rest of the raid and the amount you can pad.

In the guilds I raided with that weren't all about progression they cared about people's ability to push out dps, In SoO when frost was the worst spec in the game I was outdpsing most of my guild. When I said DKs needed buffs I got laughed at. My point is not every guild understands how classes function/scale whatever you want to call it and will just see big nerfs and not recruit based on it.

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1. Recent Warcraftlogs statistics
2. Damage statistics for variety of percentiles in all raid difficulties
3. Damage comparisons for every encounter

Yep, we're dead.

While we're as a whole performing exceptionally well right now, I still want to see what happens when everyone else gets geared. In a month if we're still where we are, my hat will be tipped off to you. Until then I will continue to be skeptical.

[Maxweii]

Yet again snipped because complaints

No point in responding to you anymore. Really even if you're not a mythic progression raider, you're totally fine as a DK. As long as you can play with a semblance of decent skill then you will be in a great position.

[Skullflower]

Just to clarify: I'm not being hired as a developer/designer. Our feedback and opinions are heavily considered, sure, but it is ultimately up to the class and technical designers to make those changes, not me nor Mag.

[Urioh]

I thought he was joking when he said the buff/nerfs were caused by skull.

You'd be surprised what kind of say we have, especially for the team I'll be joining! The 6.2 frost buffs (and later nerfs) were pretty much a result of me and Magdalena with our feedback/data. They even used the exact numbers I initially gave them to make DW Frost viable, which was unfortunately quite overpowered (I forgot to update APLs with buffs so my results was inaccurate, oops)

No one man should have all that power - Kanye West

#BIGSORRY

[Nangz]

This thread quickly devolved from a discussion about changes to discussion of state, of who said what so yea, i'm just closing this.

Have we been nerfed? Yes. Are we weak? No. Are we strong? I wouldn't really say so either. Honestly this thread probably should have been closed with the patch hit since it was more about ptr changes rather than live ones.