Distants vs Melee : do melee have enough tools to avoid kiting ?

[Nayami]

As long as shadow priests cant kite at all, melee do not need more gap closers lol

Shadowpriests can't kite?! I got kited all day long with Mind Flay slow, it's such an OP slow it's unbelievable!!! (Just kidding)

But really they should apply that slow to another spell instead of Mind Flay, I feel bad for SPs.

[lolskillzz]

spriests dont need to kite, any half decent priest will kill you with instant casts and do 30% of ur health in 1 insanity MF. as for warlocks, i just recently capped mine, and in full blue gear with 1 purple piece. i can 1v1 anything cept a combat rogue,feral, and warrior. even full gear players. Drain life talent and glyph plus affi dots will rot and allow you to tank anything. and as for gettin away from melee? WTF is Soulburn port? shits a 8 sec freedom and a massive gap opener if you know how to use it. guess thats the prob, most ranged dont know how to play and are used to shitting all over melee. I do agree tho, wars should lose leap and feral/BoS rogue is way to much. rest is fine. L2P issues from all the ranged complainning (Cept ele, poor shamans lel)

[fylth]

I've played both melee and ranged for quite a long while.

And I think currently most melee classes have the bigger advantage.
First of all, yes; certain ranged classes (mostly mages) have more gap openers and kite abilities than melee has gap closers. However, the gap closers tend to be MUCH more powerful than the gap openers. They either last for a long duration (e.g spirit walk lasts 15 seconds / Burst of Speed lasts forever) and/or have shorter cooldowns.

Furthermore, only 2 classes (that being mages and hunters) really have the prime kiting abilities. The hunter really doesn't have many gap openers though. Disengage is his only real tool. THe advantage hunter does have is Master's Call (slow / root immunity for 4 seconds every 45 seconds) and a somewhat spammable slow in Concussive Shot (6 sec slow; 5 sec CD).
Shadow Priests / Boomkins / Ele Shamans / Warlocks; really don't have that many gap openers. And the ones they do have tend to be on longerish cooldowns then most gap closers.

Final point, and this is a big one. Don't forget that kiting a melee is the same to melee as interrupting casts is to a caster. It's a vital part of the game and one that classes are supposedly balanced around.
Kicking a cast seems like no big deal, but don't forget that for a caster it can have equal dire consequences as getting rooted is to a melee class.
This is also why hunters aren't hurting as much as other casters; it's not as much that they can kite you to death, as much as they don't have the major weakness that a caster has when you enter their melee range. If you'd be able to interrupt a hunter's abilities, they wouldn't be anywhere near what they are now.

I think all in all. Melee has the clear advantage; and one that is heavily demonstrated in the current meta where cleave comps are rolling over practically all but every caster comp. I think one of the few that tends to hold it's ground is godcomp. And mages are the only casters that tend to perform very well, because they are the only ones that can win the uptime match vs a melee. I think most other casters lose that.

Kick is seriously nearly pointless. 15 second CD and you got to time it right. and what happens after a kick? They just cast the same spell again, so whats yr options? Gouge / KS? would be nice, but I need damage NOW and wasting a stun to stop a spell is insane. if they took the CD on kick away or lowered it, that would make it easier to stop spell casting.

As it stands right now, if a rogue misses a kick, its probably best to vanish or hope someone else helps out

[purebalance]

ranged have too many gap openers, the reason why you think they dont is because you continually run into warriors*, ferals, and rogues. you would have made that comment if specs like enhance, ret, & WW were more common.

(warriors get * because they are still kite fodder after charge and leap, but they still have more catch up mechanics than enhance and ret)

see what i did there?

If you're getting kited as enh or ret it's time to reroll. Every melee has a combo of gap closers AND anti kite toolkits.

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Kick is seriously nearly pointless. 15 second CD and you got to time it right. and what happens after a kick? They just cast the same spell again, so whats yr options? Gouge / KS? would be nice, but I need damage NOW and wasting a stun to stop a spell is insane. if they took the CD on kick away or lowered it, that would make it easier to stop spell casting.

As it stands right now, if a rogue misses a kick, its probably best to vanish or hope someone else helps out

AMG you have to trade some damage for defenses?!?!?!?! That almost sounds realistic.

[Deleted]

If you're getting kited as enh or ret it's time to reroll. Every melee has a combo of gap closers AND anti kite toolkits.

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AMG you have to trade some damage for defenses?!?!?!?! That almost sounds realistic.

Agreed with that first bit totally and would apply it to the other melee too. If your struggling as a melee being kited then you need to spend some time practicing how to play your class. I would also recommend you go make a hunter/frostmage and go fight good melee THEN WATCH how they kill you. This will teach you how to play.

[purebalance]

well, it was world of castercraft since wotlk/cata so i guess it had to happen at some point

Except it wasn't. Same instance of bad players who didn't know their own toolkit. Rogues and warriors did just as well as locks and shamans in WotLK yet that was ignored for tears from bads

[Omaski]

If you're getting kited as enh or ret it's time to reroll. Every melee has a combo of gap closers AND anti kite toolkits.

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AMG you have to trade some damage for defenses?!?!?!?! That almost sounds realistic.

no i dont get kited to death with my ret, but i still have to run thru a barrage of spells and arrows just to catch up and when i finally catch you im at 60% hp, rinse and repeat. i will be at ~50% hp by the time the true fight actually starts. rets only gap closer is judgment sprint. but like ive said before the underlying problem of the gap opener vs gap closer issue is just overall survivability of some classes that shouldnt be so resilient vs melee.

[Tya]

well, it was world of castercraft since wotlk/cata so i guess it had to happen at some point

Death Knights, rets and rogues are here to snap your wotlk nostalgia goggles.

[Deleted]

There is just a serious imbalance in gap openers/closers between classes so a general statement about melee vs. ranged is not really possible, you can just make a list. Keep in mind that ranged CC on melee can be used as distance closers, too, especially when on short CD like a Monk's paralysis.

MELEE:
1. Warrior: 2x Charge, Heroic Leap, no root/snare breaker, ranged Stormbolt
2. Monk: 2x Roll, Dragon Thing, Sprint on 30s CD (breaks roots/snares), Roll breaks snares (glyph), ranged Paralysis
3. Rogue: BoS on 3s CD (breaks snares), Vanish (breaks snares/roots), Cloak (breaks magic snares/rooots), Sprint
4. Feral: Charge, Sprint, Shapeshifting (breaks roots/snares), ranged snare/root (talent)
5. Paladin: Sprint on 6s CD, ranged snare (glyph), root/snare breaker without CD, 2x freedom
6. DK: either Strangulate (ranged CC) or ranged root (talent), additional trinket (talent)
7. Shaman: ranged root, freedom totem (talent)

RANGED:
1. Hunter: snare on autoshots, Disengage, Freedom, Root (if Survival), Stun (talent), Explosive trap (glyph)
2. Mage: 2x Ice Nova, Freeze, Blink, Fire sprint, Brain Freeze
3. Warlock: Port, Instant Stun (talent)
4. Shadow Priest: Fear
5. Boomkin: Blink, Instant roots, Shapeshifting breaks CC
6. Shaman: Thunderstorm, roots, stun totem

My personal playing experience is that all melee except DK and Enhancement Shaman have a VERY high uptime on all ranged classes except Mages, Hunters and maybe Moonkins.

My personal opinion is:

Way too much gap closers: Rogues, Ferals
Too much gap closers: Monks, Warriors
Quite balanced: Paladin
Too few gap closers: DK, Enhancement Shaman

Way too much gap openers: Hunters, Mages
Quite balanced: Moonkin
Too few gap openers: Shadow Priests, Warlocks, Elemental Shaman

I think they should buff/nerf all melee to Paladin level in terms of mobility and all ranged class to Moonkin level. Paladin vs. Moonkin is actually a battle that is pretty balanced and goes back and forth in terms of kiting/uptime.

[Deleted]

Except boomies are terrible at kiting, they have to hard cast and while they running around as a stag they ain't doing any damage. You cant compare that to a hunter or mage whose dps is barely affected. reduce a hunter to boomies level? how by making every shot have a 2sec cast time that we have to be stationary for? and remove icelance for frost mages?

All you did was make a big list of class abilities and its not even complete! wheres emancipate for example? Do you even play enhance shammy? you missed loads of things out. Thats before we get to the question that you can't discuss class balance by just making a giant list!!! its situational so many times. Ugh people.

[Christhammer]

My personal playing experience is that all melee except DK and Enhancement Shaman have a VERY high uptime on all ranged classes except Mages, Hunters and maybe Moonkins.

My personal opinion is:

Way too much gap closers: Rogues, Ferals
Too much gap closers: Monks, Warriors
Quite balanced: Paladin
Too few gap closers: DK, Enhancement Shaman

Way too much gap openers: Hunters, Mages
Quite balanced: Moonkin
Too few gap openers: Shadow Priests, Warlocks, Elemental Shaman

You must be kidding? DKs can basically spam Chains of ice (root). Grip, chains of ice, asphyxiate and then spam Obliterate and the opponent is almost dead after that. But sure, nerf DK (frost) damage by 50%, then you can buff their mobility.

I think Monks are fine. Same with Rogue (BoS and Sprint is all they have) and Paladin. Charge for warriors could need a nerf though. Maybe add 5 sec or something.
I definitely agree on Enh shamans.
Hunters need a BIG nerf to mobility.

[Deleted]

You must be kidding? DKs can basically spam Chains of ice (root). Grip, chains of ice, asphyxiate and then spam Obliterate and the opponent is almost dead after that. But sure, nerf DK (frost) damage by 50%, then you can buff their mobility.

I think Monks are fine. Same with Rogue (BoS and Sprint is all they have) and Paladin. Charge for warriors could need a nerf though. Maybe add 5 sec or something.
I definitely agree on Enh shamans.
Hunters need a BIG nerf to mobility.

Again you havent played an enhancer if you think the mobilty is the issue (hint its their naff surviabilty), hunters mobilty is fine its the cc thats the issue (for bads) and the warrs charge IS NOT why they are so op right now its the amount of hard cc they have combined with the sheer damage output and what they can do for their team if handled properly.

You are right about dks though I'll give you that one.

[Deleted]

well, it was world of castercraft since wotlk/cata so i guess it had to happen at some point

Any TSG, Rogue, DK or Ret comp obliterated Caster cleave.
Stop telling lies please.

[Naraga]

I don't know what to say OP.

Whereas on AJ people (legitimately) complain about melees having far too many gap closing abilities, you think they have too few? I can only say that this is most likely due to a lack of experience from your side.

However you do bring up an excellent point by saying that ranged are pretty much tanks nowadays and have too many escape abilities, which is absolutely true.

The obvious solution is to cut back on the number of escapes, defensives and gap closers all together and return to a more tbc/woltk style game.

[Deleted]

Melees basically dominate, there isn't many ranged classes that can keep them off. Only class that could complain might be DKs, rogues, ferals and warriors are night unpeelable and have way to high uptime coupled with an insane ammount of ways to shut casters down.

Heck it's one of the reasons why Elemental for example is so horrid in PvP atm.

[Deleted]

Melees basically dominate, there isn't many ranged classes that can keep them off. Only class that could complain might be DKs, rogues, ferals and warriors are night unpeelable and have way to high uptime coupled with an insane ammount of ways to shut casters down.

Heck it's one of the reasons why Elemental for example is so horrid in PvP atm.

the poor shammies desperately need a buff. I'm just not sure what they could give them without breaking things. My first thought is to make elemental damage spells uninterruptable, but that won't help them through hard CC. We cant give the shammie class a surviabilty bonus like say +20% armor or -10% incoming damage as that would make resto shaman overpowered. Perhaps we could say shammies are allowed to use any spell except a heal while in ghostwolf form, but while casting they can only move at +20% instead of +40?

It might be better to just nerf all the melees mobilty though. Then take away hunter and frost mages slows.

[Deleted]

Melees basically dominate, there isn't many ranged classes that can keep them off. Only class that could complain might be DKs, rogues, ferals and warriors are night unpeelable and have way to high uptime coupled with an insane ammount of ways to shut casters down.

Heck it's one of the reasons why Elemental for example is so horrid in PvP atm.

Shadow priests and elemental shamans need huge buffs for pvp. They are almost useless and only work in 1 or 2 comps.

[Stormspellz]

Kick is seriously nearly pointless. 15 second CD and you got to time it right. and what happens after a kick? They just cast the same spell again, so whats yr options? Gouge / KS? would be nice, but I need damage NOW and wasting a stun to stop a spell is insane. if they took the CD on kick away or lowered it, that would make it easier to stop spell casting.

As it stands right now, if a rogue misses a kick, its probably best to vanish or hope someone else helps out

wtf did i just read.

kick is nearly useless?!?!?!?

[Adramelch]

I know I'm not offering anything to the thread but I just have to comment on that.

Distants? Really?

[Kezotar]

Is this a real question? Melee has TOO MANY gap closers.

Hope you're not talking to a Unholy DK. "Many".
A Death Grip.
A Asphyxiate.

A .. Chain......


Yeah, and they have counters to every one.

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6. DK: either Strangulate (ranged CC) or ranged root (talent), additional trinket (talent)

What does Double Trinket have to do with Gap Closers?
And Ranged ROOT? Where? Unless we actually don't spec Asphyxiate we have, but then we lose our ONLY stun. And Chains no Root otherwise, it's a shitty slow.
And our Death Grip can be countered by every ranged nowadays.

DKs - Worst gap closers. Sure we're hard to stun. But we don't compete with gap closers like the rest. Oh and, slow a DK, he'll run like a fool. Nothing against slows, roots and knockbacks. Nothing!