Fixing Fury PvE

[Minimite]

Give berserker rage 2 charges, each on their own cooldown. /point shield charge, charge, dark soul, ect.

BT will always be a button we hate to press. All we need is another button that's a available enough to be a consistent back up so we can say "fuk u den" when BT won't put out.

[Crazypills]

We really need triple wielding, that'd fix pretty much everything.

[angelmaz]

I know exactly why Bloodsurge blocks the rotation. I've written dissertations covering it! However, that wasn't the point I was making. And I've never suggested taking anything off the GCD, in fact I've vehemently been against it, so whatever you've gathered from my perspective is in error.

Bloodsurge does add a proc. It's variance to the rotation and that is generally a good thing. The problem, as you tried to point out is that Bloodsurge procs at inconvenient times. Bloodsurge could easily be retooled to not be an inconvenience, which I've detailed at length in many other posts. The TLDR is that I don't believe simply removing anything problematic is the solution. That's how we end up with an Arms rotation, ie: static and boring as shit.

Could you buff Bloodthirst to compensate? Sure. But honestly, who gives a flying fuck about the numbers? Do you actually sit around and stare at your Bloodthirst damage? I honest to god don't have a clue what my Bloodthirst hits for pull to pull without looking at it, because I'm paying attention to way more important things. The only thing that matters is the end result, not how you get there (obviously massive imbalances like Arms Execute are outliers). Again, the rotation and how it feels to play matters a lot more than the damage, simply because that is where (most) players get their enjoyment out of. Ask yourself, would you rather play a 2 button spec that does ridiculous damage, or a fun spec which is only middle of the pack? Note, I'm asking what you'd rather play, not what is best for your raiding progression.


The biggest problem with your RB/Enrage suggestion is how bland it makes things. The question becomes... what do you do in between that? Ok, you are always doing BT- RB -X instead of BT - X - X - BT. All this does is make the rotation even more static, doubly so if you remove Bloodsurge from the equation. I know we have Sudden Death, but that is a talent, and shouldn't be the specs only proc. Also, like I said, it would encourage us to hold onto RB charges, which would actually make the rage capping problem worse, because you would only RB at 2 if not enraged, like we used to in 5.4, without the ability to dump rage off the GCD.

In the end, it wouldn't "fix" Fury at all. It would change it sure, but not by any means for the better. The same exact problems would persist, that is RNG controlling your damage in the form of Sudden Death and Enrage procs. It would only be slightly mitigated by an increase in the minimum amount of damage done thanks to stronger Bloodthirsts. Not exactly a compelling design imo.

- - - Updated - - -

And to elaborate, Bloodsurge is rarely the cockblock in our rotation. It's usually the combination of Sudden Death and Bloodsurge. Yes this is because Bloodsurge doesn't allow us to drop resources through Wild Strike, but just try playing without Sudden Death sometime. Not only will you see your average damage smooth out considerably, but you will also notice that rage capping occurs much less often due to more consistent rage expenditure.

It honestly is the real issue with our rotation. It does way too much damage to be on such a random system and is yet another high priority, free attack.

Unfortunately there really isn't any good fix without adding a lot of triggers onto the RPPM for Sudden Death and making it more predictable. I toyed with the idea of changing it to a triggered effect, but I'm not sure the best way to implement that just yet. The best fix is just to make the more static talents (FS) competitive enough that you don't have to deal with the random mechanic, though that is of course a poor fix, since it doesn't actually address the issue, and only offers an option instead.

This is a very thoughtful post, thanks for taking the time. I didn't mean to sound pedantic, you know way more about this situation than I do. My mistake about Bloodsurge potentially coming off the GCD!

I'd prefer the interesting spec over the Cata arcane mage, definitely. At the same time, I want to be in control of the damage I do. In other words, I want to do reliable DPS on a 5 minute timescale (+-5% DPS, say). So I would be happy with almost any change to Fury that made our damage more consistent, as long as there's some element of excitement left. As you've said, a talent (SD) shouldn't be the only proc available to Fury. I'd be fine if SD was the only proc in my rotation, though. I'm pretty new here so I haven't had a chance to read your in-depth posts on Bloodsurge, but I'd be interested to if you don't mind linking 'em.

When it comes to Bloodthirst, no I don't really care about seeing a big BT crit. It would take me back to Vanilla, but that isn't really the point. IMO, the point of buffing Bloodthirst hugely would be to give us some core, consistent damage every BT-->X-->X cycle. Since that would be a dps boost we'd need to lose something, and where better to cut our damage than procs/wildstrike. Everyone hates being cockblocked in their rotation, and everyone also hates wildstrike. That's why I suggested just removing Bloodsurge. I see your point that just removing things isn't always the best thing. But we definitely need to lose some proc damage and gain some consistent damage, somewhere.

As far as BT always granting a RB charge, yes this would make the rotation more static. IMO this would be a good thing, because the "rotation" is far too fluid at the moment. Something in between Vanilla Fury and the current Fury would be ideal, at least for me. It might not be as exciting, but you'd also never have to sit on your hands after a BT because it didn't crit. That is currently the single most frustrating thing about Fury right now: BT, nothing, wait on CD, BT, nothing, wait on CD, BT, finally RB. Any loss in excitement due to the more fixed nature of the rotation would be outweighed by never having NOTHING to press again. This may also come down to personal taste: I don't like high APM and I really hate being inconsistent. Certainly not Arms thumb-twiddlingly-low APM, but playing Glad would be unbearable.

I have kind of applied a blind spot in my thinking to Sudden Death. That's probably because it's ridiculously fun to be able to execute something over 20% HP. They need to make the proc more consistent, though I'm not sure how. Isn't it already on RPPM? Your proposed solution here is to buff FS so we don't have to deal with SD, and I think both of us agree that can't be the best way. The reasons I don't play FS are:

1. Wild strike is lame
2. FS requires nearly 100% uptime to be competitive. Fury is already uptime-dependent enough. On a side note, I am of the opinion that on a single-target, no-movement patchwerk fight Fury should be the unquestioned top DPS spec. This is the ideal situation for the only zero-DoT melee spec which also requires uptime to generate their primary resource.

You have convinced me that the Fury situation is more complicated than I thought, though. Thanks for taking the time

[Samayael]

If BT doesn't crit, your next BT has either a increased chance to crit, or a guaranteed crit. Really you shouldn't have 3+ BT non crits in a row.

I'd be behind something like this. Alleviating the large amount of RNG that Fury has is a good first step. There are of course other issues, but hey, killing the 3+ BT non-crit streaks is something I like.

[Jakesterwars]

I'd be behind something like this. Alleviating the large amount of RNG that Fury has is a good first step. There are of course other issues, but hey, killing the 3+ BT non-crit streaks is something I like.

I'd be down with this too. Fire mages have this option for each time they don't crit with fireball, why not roll it into us as well?

[Archimtiros]

You have convinced me that the Fury situation is more complicated than I thought, though. Thanks for taking the time

I don't mean to shit on your thoughts or opinions. My writing just comes across harsh because I am as passionate as the next player when analyzing and detailing the issues that plague us.

Everyone has a different opinion on what is good/bad, and preference towards likes or dislikes. Sometimes it doesn't even follow conventional logic because we all think of things differently. For example, you say you shelved your Warrior during the times of Colosuss Smash (5.4 I assume) but you also say that you really hate being inconsistent. I would argue that 5.4 Fury was perhaps the most consistent the spec has ever been, since the rotation actually became extremely sustainable and rhythmic once you learned how to handle the nuances. This of course, means nothing because you simply don't like Colossus Smash, and that's fine, everyone has their own opinion.

I agree with many of your points though, and have detailed such in previous posts. Warriors suffer tremendously from downtime because they are unable to regenerate resources, whereas traditionally we were the best spec at dealing with dynamic movement and target switching. Many of our abilities and talents simply don't play nicely (eg: Furious Strikes does absolutely nothing sub 20%, the negative interaction between Haste and Wild Strike).

The spec absolutely needs more consistency, and I personally believe the way to do that is not to handicap the player and give them automatic wins, but to add failsafes which keep the player engaged even when things don't go their way. Examples being my idea of refreshing the CD on no-crit Bloodthirsts and changing Sudden Death to either an activated proc, or massively convoluting the RPPM to regulate it's procs.

Final note: A lot of people care about damage, and that's fine. Personally after playing this game as long as I have and understanding that damage tuning comes and goes, I've reached the point where I care much more about how a spec feels to play rather than how high the numbers can go. Most of my feedback and suggestions are targeted as such for that reason.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd be down with this too. Fire mages have this option for each time they don't crit with fireball, why not roll it into us as well?

The problem Jake is that like adding a flat +10% chance to crit (which happened with the release of Highmaul), is that it only bandaids the situation. Sure you will eventually get a Crit but that doesn't really feel that effective when you have to BT three times before you get that Crit now does it?

The reason it works for Fire Mages is two fold. One they can always just re-cast Fireball if it doesn't crit. Sure it isn't ideal, but they aren't locked out like we are. Second, nearly everything they do is based off that Fireball. They don't need to stop casting Fireball to drop resources, because their mana isn't dynamic the way our Rage is. With a few exceptions, they are almost always going to hold off their bigger abilities (Combustion, etc) until they get that Fireball crit for Pyroblast.

Fury has always been a very static rhythm, set to the beat of Bloodthirst. BT - X - X - BT - X - X - BT. The problem is that we need to be able to do something during those fillers, and often can't if BT doesn't crit.

Fire doesn't. Theirs (discounting cooldowns) is a simple one-two combination. Fb - Fb - Fb - Pyro - Fb - Fb - Pyro - Fb - Fb - Fb - Pyro - Fb - Pryo, and so on. The difference being that they don't have any fillers. If they can't use Pyro, they just use Fireball again. The only time you'd interrupt this, is when you have something more important to press (Combustion, utility spells, other CDs, etc). They also don't have resources tied to their Fireball, so are not concerned with generating too much or too little if the rotation is upset. It is truly dynamic.



Adding the Fireball treatment to Bloodthirst really doesn't fix anything. You still end up with gaps in the rotation which you either can't or don't want to fill because you aren't Enraged. It only gives you a hard limit to how long those gaps can go on for.
Shown visually it would look something like: BT - X - X - BT - X - X - BT(crit) - X - X - BT - X - X - BT(crit) - X - X - BT.

My alternate suggestion (the UqT treatment) brings our system much closer in line with Fire. We still have the normal rhythm when BT does crit, but are able to re-roll that chance anytime it doesn't.
Shown visually: BT - BT - BT(crit) - X - X - BT - BT(crit) - X - X - BT.

The difference being that you always have something to do using the second method. The only upset is that continual non-crits still generate rage, so you would want to interrupt the process to dump resources. This is actually better accomplished with high rage cost Wild Strikes, since you don't feel bad about the expendature, because you can quickly regenerate the rage. It would actually work perfectly with an off-GCD dump but I'm not even going to attempt that argument right now.

[Minimite]

I still think I like the added charge on berserker rage better. As long as you're able to react to BT non-crits within a global, you can keep right on going with your rotation.

[Archimtiros]

I still think I like the added charge on berserker rage better. As long as you're able to react to BT non-crits within a global, you can keep right on going with your rotation.

It is a very good idea. Unfortunately it too is nothing more than a bandaid, as it really doesn't do anything to address constant non-crits, it's just a more effective bandaid than most of the others because it allows us extra control.

[Minimite]

It is a very good idea. Unfortunately it too is nothing more than a bandaid, as it really doesn't do anything to address constant non-crits, it's just a more effective bandaid than most of the others because it allows us extra control.

Most of the suggestions thus far have all been to remove the RNG completely. Either giving it 100% chance to crit or the subsequent BT after the first non-critical a 100% chance. At that point, why not just remove BT critical aspect of enrage or even enrage altogether and just give fury warrior a 10% damage increase? You could replace BTs importance in maintaining enrage with maintaining stacks of RB.

To be fair, I think a band-aid is all we're going to get at this point. The core of the issue is clearly something that blizzard isn't willing to address and I personally think it stems from other class mechanics. Best case scenario here is that they give the spec a baid-aid fix that is effective instead of trying to reinvent the spec, possibly doing more harm than good.

I don't ever expect BT to be consistent enough that I have 100% uptime on enrage. That might also be part of the issue here is that most people do because of the chance they will miss out on the extra damage should they get a proc here or there. Giving another charge to berserker rage puts more control in the player's hands. You will still have that gambit of "should I pop my second charge to keep 100% uptime, should I just let it fall off and cross my fingers on the next BT because I have no procs active, do I need to burn the charge because I have bloodsurge/SD procs and I need to burst" ect..

This just seems like the least intrusive route to striking that balance between people who just do everything they can to maintain uptime and people who want to actually consider which buttons they're pressing and why. You have a little more leeway in your choice to push a constant rotation or to adapt to whatever circumstances you're faced with.

[Archimtiros]

Most of the suggestions thus far have all been to remove the RNG completely. Either giving it 100% chance to crit or the subsequent BT after the first non-critical a 100% chance. At that point, why not just remove BT critical aspect of enrage or even enrage altogether and just give fury warrior a 10% damage increase? You could replace BTs importance in maintaining enrage with maintaining stacks of RB.

To be fair, I think a baid-aid is all we're going to get at this point. The core of the issue is clearly something that blizzard isn't willing to address and I personally think it stems from other class mechanics. Best case scenario here is that they give the spec a baid-aid fix that is effective instead of trying to reinvent the spec, possibly doing more harm than good.

Well to be honest we shouldn't be expecting any fixes at this point. Nothing major will happen until 7.0 at least. The reason I point them out is because my hope is that we will eventually get an overhaul which actually addresses the concerns and doesn't simply bandaid the issue.

I don't ever expect BT to be consistent enough that I have 100% uptime on enrage. That might also be part of the issue here is that most people do because of the chance they will miss out on the extra damage should they get a proc here or there. Giving another charge to berserker rage puts more control in the player's hands. You will still have that gambit of "should I pop my second charge to keep 100% uptime, should I just let it fall off and cross my fingers on the next BT because I have no procs active, do I need to burn the charge because I have bloodsurge/SD procs and I need to burst" ect..

This just seems like the least intrusive route to striking that balance between people who just do everything they can to maintain uptime and people who want to actually consider which buttons they're pressing and why. You have a little more leeway in your choice to push a constant rotation or to adapt to whatever circumstances you're faced with.

I actually don't even want a 100% uptime. I think variance is good in any rotation, but I do agree completely that the solution is to give more control to the player, either though BzR, or a fail-safe such as the ability to chain cast Bloodthirst if it doesn't crit, and so on.

[Tearyn]

Yeah this was not the start of a fun progression pull...


Consistency? what is this thing you speak of?

[G-Seven]

What if Bloodsurge instantly converted 10 rage into an additional use of Bloodthirst? Similar to Fire Mage's Inferno Blast ability with the 2-set tier bonus.

[Archimtiros]

What if Bloodsurge instantly converted 10 rage into an additional use of Bloodthirst? Similar to Fire Mage's Inferno Blast ability with the 2-set tier bonus.

Wouldn't that have the chance of proccing at inopportune times (after BT already crit) and be rather worthless then?

I think Bloodsurge procs should only be consumed when >45 rage. ie: If it procs and you are under 45 rage, you can use your 2 free WS. If it procs and you are over 45 rage, you first must spend rage before you can use the 2 free WS.

It isn't without it's own problems. You have the potential of being near rage cap, having BS proc, and not being able to use the proc until the next BT cycle, which has the potential to overwrite the proc, but it eliminates rage waste, and chance of overwriting the proc when you are that high on resources is a fairly minor concern.

[Capt Bob]

How about having Berserker Rage cost rage instead of being on a cooldown? That way you can plan ahead by saving rage if one BT fails to crit so that you can manually enrage if the second one also fails, gaining a charge of RB in the process. Let's say it costs 30 rage or so.

That would mean a 100% Enrage uptime if you play well, but I don't really see that as a problem since many other masteries are also essentially just passive damage increases. Keeping up Enrage would then be a lot like maintaining Slice and Dice for Rogues, except much more random because of BT crit RNG.

Your idea was the best one i've seen in along time. It would have to be changed for pvp tho, But that would be easy to do without impacting PVE. Would also turn the Fury specc into something that can actually seperate the good from the bad with more than "lucky crits".

[G-Seven]

Wouldn't that have the chance of proccing at inopportune times (after BT already crit) and be rather worthless then?

I think Bloodsurge procs should only be consumed when >45 rage. ie: If it procs and you are under 45 rage, you can use your 2 free WS. If it procs and you are over 45 rage, you first must spend rage before you can use the 2 free WS.

It isn't without it's own problems. You have the potential of being near rage cap, having BS proc, and not being able to use the proc until the next BT cycle, which has the potential to overwrite the proc, but it eliminates rage waste, and chance of overwriting the proc when you are that high on resources is a fairly minor concern.

I was trying to work within the confines of WS and BS, since I don't think those 2 mechanics will change, as well as trying to prevent rage capping due to an untimely BS proc. On the other hand, the situation you described does present a problem if BT crits and you get a proc.

However, I was primarily thinking about those times when BT doesn't proc and having an extra 2-3 BT may be helpful in maintaining a high enrage uptime. I suppose there are better ways to address enrage uptime than at the risk of wasting unused procs.

[chooi]

How to fix Fury:
- remove Enrage mechanic
- think of something completely new


Seriously, my point is:
any suggestion that f**ks around with fixing BT/UqT/BR is only trying to cure the symptoms. The evil lies within the whole Enrage mechanic. It simply HAS TO go. We need something new and interesting that is actually fun to play and furthermore reliable.

[Bradders]

I miss 5.X Fury so much, the smoothness, the incredible bursts of power, and respectable damage even outside of the CS window. The buildup of rage and tension just before you release it all felt great; even better once 5.4 came out and the Galakras trinket made even Storm Bolt line up perfectly. What they took away, by removing Colossus Smash, was the dynamism of the spec at its heart. They cut my damned head off! Fury plays exactly the same as it did in 5.4, except now its braindead; rage isn't a resource you generate, manage, and spend anymore - you just spend it. Spend it immediately! It's burning a hole in your skull! What are you saving it for? Oh, right, no enrage. Rage used to be your friend, now IT'S THE ENEMY, and the optimal spending period is unreliable to boot!

Maybe its time to change our relationship with rage and enrage? What if it meant something mechanical to build up our resources? Say we become enraged guaranteed at 100 rage (yes, makes the +20 rage cap glyph mandatory)? Make it do something for the spec, activate our old friend Flurry, giving us a pile of haste to add more attacks in our enraged state? As it stands enrage is a headache when it doesn't happen, instead of the boon it should feel like. I liked the rage-for-enrage Berserker rage idea, but it is still just a bandaid. Something needs to change how the spec feels to play - one dimensional, frustrating, and unengaging.

[Sethanor]

the whole rage for enrage thing sounds really bad imo ... it wont help at all

low gear: you dont generate much rage and the littel you have will be spent on enrage then so you basically cant use ws at all, which leaves you with huge holes all the time, thus making it even more "not furious" at all.

high gear: might work, but we are still in the first content ... by the end of T18 things will look different and its just there with no real use and it might as well have not been implemented at all.

its yet another band-aid fix that wont do anything good for the spec, just cover up a flaw ... and doing a pretty poor job at it as well (esp in lower gear).

spending rage in huge junks (ws) just doesnt feel furious imo ... that paired with the 100% rng makes it a pain.
you cant just fix it by trying on one end, you need to overhaul it completely.

[Archimtiros]

the whole rage for enrage thing sounds really bad imo ... it wont help at all

low gear: you dont generate much rage and the littel you have will be spent on enrage then so you basically cant use ws at all, which leaves you with huge holes all the time, thus making it even more "not furious" at all.

high gear: might work, but we are still in the first content ... by the end of T18 things will look different and its just there with no real use and it might as well have not been implemented at all.

its yet another band-aid fix that wont do anything good for the spec, just cover up a flaw ... and doing a pretty poor job at it as well (esp in lower gear).

spending rage in huge junks (ws) just doesnt feel furious imo ... that paired with the 100% rng makes it a pain.
you cant just fix it by trying on one end, you need to overhaul it completely.

Hate to say it but I have to agree.

One of the biggest problems with Warrior design and the way our rotation scales with gear (crit), since Cata is that our rotation always feels crappy at the start of the expansion, mediocre in the middle and good at the end. Which I think this is a terrible model.

Sure it works out for people who play the entire expansion through, and it gives you that feeling of "getting stronger as you go", but it also is extremely jarring when you start the next expansion over like a dullard who forgot how to swing his sword. It also isn't any fun for people who only play part time, ie: they only play Highmaul and then quit WoD until next expansion for whatever reason. The only experience they got out of WoD was that Warriors felt terrible, regardless if we actually got better towards the end; with the opposite being true if they only played the last tier.

We really need a more consistent model, one that doesn't change dramatically with gear, whose rotation isn't gated by how much X-Stat you happen to have. The feeling of "getting stronger" as you go up in gear can still be accomplished in a variety of ways, such as quickening the rotation via Haste, or mechanics like Warlocks crit-> damage with Chaos Bolt.

[chooi]

To be fair, Warriors always needed the high-end gear first to really shine in any expansion.

We really need a more consistent model, one that doesn't change dramatically with gear, whose rotation isn't gated by how much X-Stat you happen to have. The feeling of "getting stronger" as you go up in gear can still be accomplished in a variety of ways, such as quickening the rotation via Haste, or mechanics like Warlocks crit-> damage with Chaos Bolt.

I totally agree.

My thoughts for Fury:
- design it as the 'plate-wearing rogue' like it was in the old days
- give it the potencial for very high sustained but low to average burst damage
- design around Haste (and possibly Multistrike) as main stat(s)
- let Fury build up a buff over time like a modern version of old Rampage that stacks faster and/or does more damage the more gear you get (via Haste and/or Mastery)
- remove Titan's Grip if needed due to balancing issues and to underline the Fury as fast-hitting, rampaging killer machine (I know people will hate me for that. Maybe give only Warriors the option to transmog 1h to 2h)
- create an easy-to-learn yet hard-to-master rotation