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  1. #1
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    Question Nemesis questing... A solution to open world content starvation?

    The nemesis system is something in Shadow of Mordor that makes enemies remember you and grow in strength when you can’t defeat them. In World of Warcraft, could that system be used (sort of) inversely to create daily questing content that gets harder every time you complete it, and increases in reward at the same time?

    More details in post #6 further below. This is the TL, DR version.

  2. #2
    Yes, there has been a metric shit ton of new stuff in games since WoW was released. All things that would greatly help having a relevant and dynamic world, and more depth.

    Blizzard has to be aware of the strides other MMOs have taken and other games in general, yet chooses to keep WoW a lobby game.

    It's either because the game is just too old so it will never happen, or Blizzard doesn't care because they want to keep it a raiding/lobby game and it will probably never happen.

    IMO it's time to just start playing the newer and better games rather than hoping one day WoW will match the dynamic GW2 events, Rifts, Nemesis systems or whatever those new games bring to the table.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Yes, there has been a metric shit ton of new stuff in games since WoW was released. All things that would greatly help having a relevant and dynamic world, and more depth.

    Blizzard has to be aware of the strides other MMOs have taken and other games in general, yet chooses to keep WoW a lobby game.

    It's either because the game is just too old so it will never happen, or Blizzard doesn't care because they want to keep it a raiding/lobby game and it will probably never happen.

    IMO it's time to just start playing the newer and better games rather than hoping one day WoW will match the dynamic GW2 events, Rifts, Nemesis systems or whatever those new games bring to the table.
    I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but daily zones (particularly considering the Iron Horde example) seem like such a great place for something like I've described to fit in.

  4. #4
    Its a good idea but i dont think they even need to go to that much effort. Just lift the variants/frenzy virus idea from monster hunter. You run into oondasta for example, but now its a red oondasta thats 15% stronger and has either better drops or rarer materials. Not just world bosses but make everything have a chance to be a 'variant' or its existing default type. Just a simple low chance to spawn instead of the normal.

    Though an area that gets harder the better you play till you reach your own personal wall would be nice to expand on the proving grounds idea.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    Its a good idea but i dont think they even need to go to that much effort. Just lift the variants/frenzy virus idea from monster hunter. You run into oondasta for example, but now its a red oondasta thats 15% stronger and has either better drops or rarer materials. Not just world bosses but make everything have a chance to be a 'variant' or its existing default type. Just a simple low chance to spawn instead of the normal.

    Though an area that gets harder the better you play till you reach your own personal wall would be nice to expand on the proving grounds idea.
    I like that idea, too. :O

    What it doesn't do is provide that sense of personal progression that the Nemesis system can provide. You know what you're doing, you know how to get there, and it takes time and effort rather than relying on luck.

    Well, at least that's how it's designed...

    Since my OP, I've also thought of lots of ways in which they can develop it.

  6. #6
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    Having wrestled with the problem of easy-to-consume open world content that players blow through and never go back to, it’s fair to say Blizzard has done little other than fire blanks in their effort to find a solution. In Warlords of Draenor, it seems they’ve literally decided to simply not bother trying to provide open world content because they can’t find a way to make it last.

    But is there a way?

    Well, I play Shadow of Morder. In that game (which is more or less finding fun ways to slaughter orcs across Middle Earth), there’s something called the Nemesis system. Put simply, this works by having orcs in Sauron’s army big themselves up by moving through the ranks via infighting, intrigue, or simply surviving an encounter with you. Should they survive, they will remember what you did to them and will react accordingly – so if you set one on fire before he ran off, he’ll be disfigured and will have a fear of fire.

    Now obviously, nothing that deep is likely to find its way into World of Warcraft. We haven’t got talented enough designers. But, could a system be designed that causes certain groups of enemies to remember you, and tool up accordingly?

    Think on this:

    There’s a daily zone where you go and fight the Iron Horde. Let’s call it the Iron Rise. When you first go up there, the enemies are as strong as you’d expect them to be – not very. However, rather than merely a set of quests, a more scenario-led series of objectives allow you to assault the Iron Rise and weaken their stronghold in different ways. The final objective is beating up a boss of some kind, stealing his stuff, and flying (LOLZ) back for your rewards. Hell, there could be 20 objectives up on the Iron Rise, and they randomly generate each day you go up there.

    So far, so good. We’ve seen this before.

    But let’s imagine for a second that Grom finds out about it, and he’s pissed. Unhappy that the Iron Rise was infiltrated so easily with some of the walls vandalised with meme graffiti, he sends Grimtooth Arseface up there to retrain the slackers and make sure they’re better prepared should they be assaulted again… Which, of course, they will be. The next time you go up there, the orcs under Arseface’s command have either had their damage and health buffed, have been equipped with enchanted weapons, or are reorganised into tighter groups to stop them being picked off individually. The next time you go up there, they’re ready to fuck your shit up… Or so they hope. Sadly, they’re still pretty duff orcs and you complete your six or so objectives but with a bit more trouble than before.

    Grom loses it.

    In a fit of rage that, again, the Iron Rise has seen its coffee creams all eaten with mocking IOUs left in the boxes, he sends Gnarla Cockmouth up there to get the place on lockdown. Gnarla is a warlock with a penchant for humping incubi, but she’s also pretty handy at summoning demons. The next time we go up there, Arseface’s training remains intact and the orcs have the enchanted weapons he gave them, but they’re now accompanied by powerful Felguards.

    You see where I’m going.

    In its simplest sense, what I’m suggesting is a daily quest zone that gets harder every time you complete it and provides rewards commensurate with that challenge. If the general that takes charge of the Iron Rise is randomly generated, and the soldiers under their command retain their previous skills, you’ve effectively got personal progression that could be infinite. There are so many other things you could do, like let the general live when you confront them, put in a random escape mechanism, or have generals from other places that you know slotted into the zone, but on the face of it we have a relatively simple idea going on here.

    What do we think?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amulree View Post
    Having wrestled with the problem of easy-to-consume open world content that players blow through and never go back to, it’s fair to say Blizzard has done little other than fire blanks in their effort to find a solution. In Warlords of Draenor, it seems they’ve literally decided to simply not bother trying to provide open world content because they can’t find a way to make it last.

    But is there a way?

    Well, I play Shadow of Morder. In that game (which is more or less finding fun ways to slaughter orcs across Middle Earth), there’s something called the Nemesis system. Put simply, this works by having orcs in Sauron’s army big themselves up by moving through the ranks via infighting, intrigue, or simply surviving an encounter with you. Should they survive, they will remember what you did to them and will react accordingly – so if you set one on fire before he ran off, he’ll be disfigured and will have a fear of fire.

    Now obviously, nothing that deep is likely to find its way into World of Warcraft. We haven’t got talented enough designers. But, could a system be designed that causes certain groups of enemies to remember you, and tool up accordingly?

    Think on this:

    There’s a daily zone where you go and fight the Iron Horde. Let’s call it the Iron Rise. When you first go up there, the enemies are as strong as you’d expect them to be – not very. However, rather than merely a set of quests, a more scenario-led series of objectives allow you to assault the Iron Rise and weaken their stronghold in different ways. The final objective is beating up a boss of some kind, stealing his stuff, and flying (LOLZ) back for your rewards. Hell, there could be 20 objectives up on the Iron Rise, and they randomly generate each day you go up there.

    So far, so good. We’ve seen this before.

    But let’s imagine for a second that Grom finds out about it, and he’s pissed. Unhappy that the Iron Rise was infiltrated so easily with some of the walls vandalised with meme graffiti, he sends Grimtooth Arseface up there to retrain the slackers and make sure they’re better prepared should they be assaulted again… Which, of course, they will be. The next time you go up there, the orcs under Arseface’s command have either had their damage and health buffed, have been equipped with enchanted weapons, or are reorganised into tighter groups to stop them being picked off individually. The next time you go up there, they’re ready to fuck your shit up… Or so they hope. Sadly, they’re still pretty duff orcs and you complete your six or so objectives but with a bit more trouble than before.

    Grom loses it.

    In a fit of rage that, again, the Iron Rise has seen its coffee creams all eaten with mocking IOUs left in the boxes, he sends Gnarla Cockmouth up there to get the place on lockdown. Gnarla is a warlock with a penchant for humping incubi, but she’s also pretty handy at summoning demons. The next time we go up there, Arseface’s training remains intact and the orcs have the enchanted weapons he gave them, but they’re now accompanied by powerful Felguards.

    You see where I’m going.

    In its simplest sense, what I’m suggesting is a daily quest zone that gets harder every time you complete it and provides rewards commensurate with that challenge. If the general that takes charge of the Iron Rise is randomly generated, and the soldiers under their command retain their previous skills, you’ve effectively got personal progression that could be infinite. There are so many other things you could do, like let the general live when you confront them, put in a random escape mechanism, or have generals from other places that you know slotted into the zone, but on the face of it we have a relatively simple idea going on here.

    What do we think?
    Lol love it! There are lots of really good ideas for different aspects of this game, such as yours, but will likely never receive the attention and or consideration by blizzard for changes. It's kind of sad really, there's so many interesting ways they could make this game more exciting but its becoming increasingly evident that they are making half-assed attempts at, well, everything :/

  8. #8
    I like it, and would play it, but I don't think blizzard cares about..well... anything. It would take them 4 years to put this into the game at the pace they work at.
    It's a shame.

    I thank you for the time you took to propose this fantastic idea and appreciate it(even Cockmouth!). I get all excited when I see good ideas.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amulree View Post
    Now obviously, nothing that deep is likely to find its way into World of Warcraft. We haven’t got talented enough designers.
    Classy.
    Ok, so a daily quest zone that phases to a harder one each time you complete some objectives?
    So what would be the incentive of visiting it more than once? How would it work in MMORPG setting?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gourmandise View Post
    I like it, and would play it, but I don't think blizzard cares about..well... anything. It would take them 4 years to put this into the game at the pace they work at.
    It's a shame.
    That’s the beauty of it, though. Once the system is built, it can pretty much self-generate using current in-game art and assets. There’s largely no additional work that needs done, so it’s effectively limitless content that requires no real work (other than some hotfixes or tweaks).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamyz View Post
    So what would be the incentive of visiting it more than once?
    The incentive would be gear. Let’s say you complete the stage one difficulty and it offers 100% chance of getting an item level 10 drop (number chosen to keep it simple). At level two, there’s a 20% chance of getting an item at level 15, level three sees that at 40%, level four sees it at 60% and level five sees it at 80%. This could be a “stage” (with an appropriate achievement), and the next stage is at level 6 where you’re guaranteed a level 15 item but have a 20% chance of getting an item at level 20… And so on, ad infinitum. Potentially, the area could have a weekly gear cooldown so that it's not too efficient, and that could be called "Training Time" or something - the period it takes for the new general to get his training into the peons.

    I mentioned achievements and, of course, you could set it up similar to how the proving grounds work. Up to level 5 is Bronze, up to level 15 is Silver and up to level 25 is Gold. However, you could also have visual achievements for the strongest general you’ve managed to kill.

    In Pandaria and Draenor, you’ve been able to display pristine artifacts. Imagine you could add level 25 general heads to the wall when you kill them (potentially an expansion’s worth of work).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamyz View Post
    How would it work in MMORPG setting?
    Good question.

    I suspect that most people would attack this with individual progression in mind, but there’s no reason why raids of people couldn’t pile up the Iron Rise together. Blizzard already has scaling technology working in raids, so it could clearly work in these zones, too. Take the average level of the players in a group from the Iron Rise, and reward everyone according to that average.

    Some specific bits would need to be put in place to avoid people cheesing it, obviously, but you get the idea. Ultimately, there should be incentives to group up rather than punishing players for it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Amulree View Post
    snip
    First I think that you can't have "indefinitely increasing rewards". Look at Diablo 3, they have torment levels that increase the rewards but there is a cap to torment because Blizzard needs to control the power of the players.

    So you want to reward gear, with drop percentages ? I don't think that's a good idea people don't like drop chance in general. I'd rather have apexis and buy the gear associated.

    And what happens if I want to do dailies with my friends but we aren't all on the same "level" of difficulty ? How does the game set the level ? Can I still progress or do I have to play solo ?

    You would like to have invasions, but instead of "ranking" based on clear speed, you want harder opponents, I like that, I hate being pressured by time. But it's much more difficult to create and tune to an appropriate level.
    Last edited by ThunderTaco; 2015-04-27 at 09:59 AM.

  12. #12
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    I spoke about some of this in post #10, Thunder, but I could be more specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderTaco View Post
    First I think that you can't have "indefinitely increasing rewards". Look at Diablo 3, they have torment levels that increase the rewards but there is a cap to torment because Blizzard needs to control the power of the players.
    I think this would be controlled, anyway. In my response to Jamyz, I mention an increasing percentage chance to get a reward you want. But the actual reward would be a box with a random item inside, and as the difficulty increases the item itself might not be something you want, given the difficulty of getting it.

    Say for example, you complete level 16 and it was a real struggle. Level 17 is going to be harder still, but you might not get an item you’re after from it and you then have a decision to make; will I work on another area to get my gear improved (or use one of the other sources, such as raids or professions), or struggle on painfully?

    That said, I’m not against the idea of a cap – so long as that cap goes up with each patch. Eventually, something will become ludicrously difficult at current gear levels and I think those players that struggle through should be rewarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderTaco View Post
    And what happens if I want to do dailies with my friends but we aren't all on the same "level" of difficulty ? What happens ?
    There are lots of options. The first one (mentioned above) was to average out the level all participants were at, and reward appropriately. My problem with that is that if there’s a big disparity between the two, then the lower player gets rewarded well beyond his capability and the higher player gets effectively nothing. It’s probably not great.

    Another suggestion could be to average out the difficulty as before, but reward players for the difficulty they are at on an individual basis. Like this:

    ThunderTaco: Level 10.
    Amulree: Level 1.
    Average: Level 5.

    You get an item that’s probably useless, while I’m getting a boost under the first suggestion. Now, don’t forget, that might be desirable for players; it’s not universally a bad idea. Under the second idea, the average difficulty is level five but only the player at the top (you) really benefits from grouping up – I may as well not have bothered.

    Maybe a mix of the two would be better. So, if we complete it, anyone under the average will get an item at that level, but the person at the top gets the reward at their level so everyone wins.

    Then, of course, what do you do with the difficulty of completion? Do both players move up a level? I’m not sure. Again, maybe the average difficulty should decide – if you’re within two levels of the average difficulty then you’ll move up, but if you’re more than that then you won’t.

    Personally, I’d be more inclined to have it so that completion = move up a level, no matter what. If we’re talking about a weekly gear lockout, then it’s not as if anyone’s going to power through it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderTaco View Post
    You would like to have invasions, but instead of "ranking" based on clear speed, you want harder opponents, I like that, I hate being pressured by time. But it's much more difficult to create and tune to an appropriate level.
    I’m assuming garrisons, in their current form, won’t make it out of Draenor. And even if they did, I’m not arguing for invasions; that’s not world content, which the game sorely needs.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Amulree View Post
    I think this would be controlled, anyway. In my response to Jamyz, I mention an increasing percentage chance to get a reward you want. But the actual reward would be a box with a random item inside, and as the difficulty increases the item itself might not be something you want, given the difficulty of getting it.

    Say for example, you complete level 16 and it was a real struggle. Level 17 is going to be harder still, but you might not get an item you’re after from it and you then have a decision to make; will I work on another area to get my gear improved (or use one of the other sources, such as raids or professions), or struggle on painfully?

    That said, I’m not against the idea of a cap – so long as that cap goes up with each patch. Eventually, something will become ludicrously difficult at current gear levels and I think those players that struggle through should be rewarded.
    I don't really like the idea of having a percentage chance to have a reward. It means bad and lucky players can have better rewards than good and unlucky players.
    I'd rather have a guaranteed reward and the reward scaled to fit the level of "accomplishment". I agree with the rest, as long as you can "select" the level of difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amulree View Post
    There are lots of options. The first one (mentioned above) was to average out the level all participants were at, and reward appropriately. My problem with that is that if there’s a big disparity between the two, then the lower player gets rewarded well beyond his capability and the higher player gets effectively nothing. It’s probably not great.

    Another suggestion could be to average out the difficulty as before, but reward players for the difficulty they are at on an individual basis. Like this:

    ThunderTaco: Level 10.
    Amulree: Level 1.
    Average: Level 5.

    You get an item that’s probably useless, while I’m getting a boost under the first suggestion. Now, don’t forget, that might be desirable for players; it’s not universally a bad idea. Under the second idea, the average difficulty is level five but only the player at the top (you) really benefits from grouping up – I may as well not have bothered.

    Maybe a mix of the two would be better. So, if we complete it, anyone under the average will get an item at that level, but the person at the top gets the reward at their level so everyone wins.

    Then, of course, what do you do with the difficulty of completion? Do both players move up a level? I’m not sure. Again, maybe the average difficulty should decide – if you’re within two levels of the average difficulty then you’ll move up, but if you’re more than that then you won’t.

    Personally, I’d be more inclined to have it so that completion = move up a level, no matter what. If we’re talking about a weekly gear lockout, then it’s not as if anyone’s going to power through it.
    No, it can't work that way, you have the item level for the difficulty you beat. If we are at level 5, we get level 5 rewards, that's how all dungeons, raids and things work in WoW. That's like saying "I went to help my friend in normal but I'm a Mythic raider, so I should loot mythic gear !".

    Quote Originally Posted by Amulree View Post
    I’m assuming garrisons, in their current form, won’t make it out of Draenor. And even if they did, I’m not arguing for invasions; that’s not world content, which the game sorely needs.
    This kind of content cannot be "open world", how would you avoid people getting help from other players without being grouped ? How would you avoid massive griefing and whines about PvP ? It must be instanced, I don't see how that would help world content.

  14. #14
    The main problem is that the players does not get the feeling of character progression of the content that he is doing does not get faster/easier each time he does it but harder instead.
    Besides meaningful reward I think this is also the main reason why challenge modes are not as wide accepted and played as they could be.

  15. #15
    I love the concept, but i would do it a bit different:

    1. You shouldn't try to explain the reward and how it works. It's a waste of time to talk about something that can be easily changed, that can be done in several ways and that highly depends on the reward structure for each moment. Perhaps right now apexis + chest with loot is a good way to go, but in the next expansion the high level options rely again in something like valor points and makes more sense to simply give those... don't bother with the reward, just focus on the gameplay involved in the concept.

    2. I think the best aproach would be to have it phased or even instanced. So each player has their own 'iron rise', group play is possible of course, the group leader's level prevails, enemy health & damage adapts to the number of players from 1 to 5. This also gives some interesting options:
    - Rankings. Because this nice idea of yours can also work really well alongside the greater rifts concept from diablo. Although as challenge modes or proving grounds... rankings should just be for fun, with some achievements.
    - Special events at certain levels that are as challenging as a brawer's guild boss.
    - Timed events since is your own 'iron rise', you can add some timed objectives.

    3. Leveling & options. I would personally handle 'mob leveling' with a negative experience bar & locked levels attached to the whole zone. So each mob you defeat gives experience, objetives also give experience and completing the whole zone gives a big boost in experience based also in performance (if you die, they get less XP, if you complete it really fast, they get more XP... etc). When you finish the session you will always unlock your next locked level, but if you earned enough experience (well... the mobs) you could unlock more. important note: negative experience only last for that session, is not a permanent thing, each time you start the quest/scenario experience is set to 0. A few things about this system:
    - The player can choose to play in any unlocked level.
    - While in a group you don't need to have the leader's level unlocked.
    - If you participate in a higher level than the one have unlocked, you'll earn more experience and unlock more levels.

    4. The max level & ranks. There should be some milestones having a max level in terms of reward... but not in terms of rankings. So let's say that level 25 is the max in terms of reward, so at that level you will get the best possible reward from this option, but the zone will keep leveling. Increased healt and damage, but no new events, so this is the place where the rankings i spoke of in #2 will happen. So if gives a finite experience in the mid-term to any player that just wants the reward, but also has the inifite experience with rankings for anyone that likes that kind of stuff. About rankings:
    - This is where that experience bar shines, since the highest level combined with the higher experience earned during a session will determine the higher rank.

    Now, maybe i went too far from your idea, but i feel like is still the same concept, and i won't change anything about how it works: adding new mobs, new skills, new objectives...
    "Mastery Haste will fix it."

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderTaco View Post
    I don't really like the idea of having a percentage chance to have a reward. It means bad and lucky players can have better rewards than good and unlucky players.
    In general I agree, but Blizzard loves random rewards. They’ve even gone as far as double-random and triple-random, so it’s unlikely they’d guarantee anything. Effectively, should someone from Blizzard read this thread, I’m giving them an out.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderTaco View Post
    I'd rather have a guaranteed reward and the reward scaled to fit the level of "accomplishment". I agree with the rest, as long as you can "select" the level of difficulty.
    Good point. A way to ensure the area doesn’t level up, if you don’t want it to, would probably need to be implemented. That’s simple enough, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderTaco View Post
    No, it can't work that way, you have the item level for the difficulty you beat. If we are at level 5, we get level 5 rewards, that's how all dungeons, raids and things work in WoW. That's like saying "I went to help my friend in normal but I'm a Mythic raider, so I should loot mythic gear !".
    That’s one of the things I suggested. The conundrum is ensuring that the higher level person is suitably rewarded, but you’re right in that it would simply be cheesed by people to get better rewards for easier content.

    Maybe when you pick up the reward, you get a choice – a loot box, currency, gold, or a satchel of herbs/ore/leather/cloth. That way, the higher level player can get something else if his gear reward is only level 5.

    That’s probably a good middle-ground, actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderTaco View Post
    This kind of content cannot be "open world", how would you avoid people getting help from other players without being grouped ? How would you avoid massive griefing and whines about PvP ? It must be instanced, I don't see how that would help world content.
    By “open world”, I really mean “out in the world”. You’re right, it’d likely have to be instanced, but these zones would be out in the world. Again, this is different from invasions that are literally all exactly the same, just with different mob skins and they take place in one single area.

    That’s assuming you ever get the quest for an invasion.

    Of which I’ve only had one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    The main problem is that the players does not get the feeling of character progression of the content that he is doing does not get faster/easier each time he does it but harder instead.
    Besides meaningful reward I think this is also the main reason why challenge modes are not as wide accepted and played as they could be.
    As ThunderTaco suggested, putting in a toggle that allows you to keep the difficulty the same would allow for this to be mitigated against heavily. A person could stay at level 5, say, until they have a full set of that item level gear. It’s up to the player how quickly he wants to progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    1. You shouldn't try to explain the reward and how it works. It's a waste of time to talk about something that can be easily changed, that can be done in several ways and that highly depends on the reward structure for each moment. Perhaps right now apexis + chest with loot is a good way to go, but in the next expansion the high level options rely again in something like valor points and makes more sense to simply give those... don't bother with the reward, just focus on the gameplay involved in the concept.
    I agree, but my only stipulation is that this needs to provide player power. Needs to. The other options, as you say, are only relevant at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    2. I think the best aproach would be to have it phased or even instanced.
    Yeah, I’m persuaded about this. Honestly, instanced content is the only way to make it work without being abused and/or griefed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    - Special events at certain levels that are as challenging as a brawer's guild boss.
    The area general should be the tough guy, but I get your point. The five level increments are the best place to do this and, up to level 25, you could even advance the story, similar to Domination Point or the Isle of Thunder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    - Timed events since is your own 'iron rise', you can add some timed objectives.
    I personally wouldn’t support that. Challenge modes aren’t hugely popular because of this, but I think some timed objectives would absolutely be worthwhile. Essentially, I think it’s limiting; if you want to put more stealth-related objectives in, timed-runs would be a pain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    3. Leveling & options. I would personally handle 'mob leveling' with a negative experience bar & locked levels attached to the whole zone…
    If you’re suggesting a way of using that so that players can grind levels a bit faster than actually gearing up, then I see no reason whatsoever not to do it. Giving players the choice to work through several levels in one week, rather than just one, seems like an inherently good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    4. The max level & ranks. There should be some milestones having a max level in terms of reward... but not in terms of rankings. So let's say that level 25 is the max in terms of reward, so at that level you will get the best possible reward from this option, but the zone will keep leveling. Increased healt and damage, but no new events, so this is the place where the rankings i spoke of in #2 will happen. So if gives a finite experience in the mid-term to any player that just wants the reward, but also has the inifite experience with rankings for anyone that likes that kind of stuff. About rankings:
    - This is where that experience bar shines, since the highest level combined with the higher experience earned during a session will determine the higher rank.
    Again, I’m not sure how much people really care about rankings. That said, there’s no reason not to put it in; nobody loses anything from it being there, and it’s another option for those into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    Now, maybe i went too far from your idea, but i feel like is still the same concept, and i won't change anything about how it works: adding new mobs, new skills, new objectives...
    I don’t think it was far away from my original idea at all.

  17. #17
    Well, the more I think about this, the more I think about raids, with a smaller size. I shall call them, dungeons.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderTaco View Post
    Well, the more I think about this, the more I think about raids, with a smaller size. I shall call them, dungeons.
    The system could arguably fit dungeons.

    What I'm really thinking about is personal progression, that can be used by groups - not the other way around.

  19. #19
    Deleted
    Would this remind somewhat of the system proving ground uses? Without the starting over from the beginning part ofc.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amulree View Post
    I suspect that most people would attack this with individual progression in mind, but there’s no reason why raids of people couldn’t pile up the Iron Rise together. Blizzard already has scaling technology working in raids, so it could clearly work in these zones, too. Take the average level of the players in a group from the Iron Rise, and reward everyone according to that average.

    As a single-player "daily hub" I sort of disliked the idea because it would be just another phased out solo grind for tokens/points/diamonds/gear.
    However, if you'd make it a world boss zone - so that you need a 40 man (a random world boss group) raid to complete the stages, it it immediately becomes more attractive in the MMO-setting.

    Think something like old Alterac Valley type setting (but entirely PvE, with "dynamic scaling") - with different tasks to do in order to summon an Ancient, that then aids your group clearing the way to the end boss.. compared to a normal "tank&spank" world bosses we have now, that would be pretty damn sweet.

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