Dr. Boom

[ipoststuff]

BGHs great value comes from Dr.Boom. Without DR.Boom the average number of 7+attack minions on a deck may not be as high to justify BGH a spot. Same goes for mindcontrol tech. They have other uses ofc but Dr.Boom made them much powerful.

About Dr.Boom;
The counter cards BGH,Mind control Tech have been the most popular they have been after GvG release. Even with counter cards being this widely used Dr.Boom is in most decks. That means Dr.Boom is OP.

A good card appears in most decks. People start to counter it. Then it fades back to a reasonable spot. Thats how meta shifts. Except for Dr.Boom.

[Mormolyce]

I dont consider "Boom" OP, most decks have the ability to remove it just like that

plenty of other ones who needs the nerf though, stop whining about it maybe

Most decks can remove 3 cards? Well, you can remove Boom himself (OM NOM NOM thanks for your removal, now I'll just play my real 7+ attack cards), and with a second card you can remove the bombs (OM NOM NOM thanks for your AoE too), but you'll still take the explosion damage regardless. You've wasted removal, AoE, probably lost minions and/or attacks. It's a complete tempo swing.

Put together any string of god-like RNG and almost any deck can perform miracles. Undertaker was barely OP in hunter and even then nerfing it did nothing to slow the class down. Facehunter continues to be an easy deck to abuse the ladder. All that the undertaker nerf did was render a good card useless for the other decks that were using it.

You did NOT need a miracle to pull off an undertaker combo, your entire hand was deathrattle cards. The only thing that stopped it was if your opponent could remove it in 1-2 turns. Beyond ridiculous for a 1 mana card. It was a well deserved nerf.

And face Hunter is still a thing because there's like 7 broken things about face Hunter and they've so far nerfed say, 2-3 of them.

I really hope they don't nerf Dr.Boom. Usually the nerf includes making the card totally unplayable and we already have plenty of those.

"OP OR USELESS" - the classic false dichotomy of people trying to avoid having their favourite OP things fixed.

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BGHs great value comes from Dr.Boom. Without DR.Boom the average number of 7+attack minions on a deck may not be as high to justify BGH a spot. Same goes for mindcontrol tech. They have other uses ofc but Dr.Boom made them much powerful.

Before Dr Boom BGH was a situational include. If you thought you'd vs a lot of heavy decks you'd consider BGH.

Now he's an auto include because every man and his dog runs Dr Boom.

The former is good design, the latter is a side effect of a broken card.

[De Lupe]

I really hope they don't nerf Dr.Boom. Usually the nerf includes making the card totally unplayable and we already have plenty of those.

I speak as someone who successfully makes regular use of cards that are "useless." There's no such thing as an unplayable card. Just because it's not useful for you, doesn't mean it isn't useful for others. I personally don't use Boom (he's a waste of a card slot in all my builds and I'd probably DE him if I got one as he's more valuable to me as dust than as an actual card,) but that doesn't render him unplayable to me, just not ideal. Having said that, Boom could do with a minor nerf. When a card is designed in such a way that, even with a counter readily available in the form of BGH, it is still played in 95% of builds, it is too strong. I agree that it would best be done by making his bombs hit random targets instead of random enemies.

[Deleted]

"OP OR USELESS" - the classic false dichotomy of people trying to avoid having their favourite OP things fixed.

Not really, just reality:

- Nat Pagle got nerfed and hasn't seen play since;
- Tinkmaster got nerfed and hasn't seen play since;
- Buzzard got nerfed and hasn't seen play since;
- Undertaker got nerfed and hasn't seen play since.

Besides, Dr. Boom isn't my favourite card, I just don't want to see more cards become unplayable just because the mob is crying "nerf!". Thankfully the design team seems to be more careful this time and isn't rushing in to nerf the card as soon as people cry about it.

It's actually funny when you think about it. Why cry "nerf!" about a card that anyone can use? It's not like it's a class specific card that is unfairly giving class X an advantadge over other classes. Kind of reminds me of Mass Effect Online mode, where people played against AI, so everyone had access to the same weapons/classes/powers and these were not used against themselves, but that didn't stop some people crying for nerfs over certain weapons/powers.

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I speak as someone who successfully makes regular use of cards that are "useless." There's no such thing as an unplayable card. Just because it's not useful for you, doesn't mean it isn't useful for others.

In unplayable I meant not good in a competitive environment. You're obviously free to build whatever deck you like and if you want you can make a deck of 30 cards that no one ever uses. Won't be a good deck (there is a reason why some cards are played by the majority after all), but you are free to do whatever you like with the cards.

[Deleted]

You did NOT need a miracle to pull off an undertaker combo

No, but combos like those mentioned by the poster I quoted do.

The only thing that stopped it was if your opponent could remove it in 1-2 turns.

And just how many 1-2 mana removals are there in the game? I cannot say from the top of my head but my first thought is a lot. Heck, you didn't even need to remove it, but simply silence it.

And, as I said, the only real problem with the undertaker was when played in the hunter, which suggests the problem was more with the class than the individual card. Played in any number of other decks, like the priest, the card was nowhere near as powerful. Good, yes, but that was the point of playing it.

"OP OR USELESS" - the classic false dichotomy of people trying to avoid having their favourite OP things fixed.

Except that is precisely what tends to happen. A huge number of cards have been rendered unplayable in competitive play because they were nerfed.

[De Lupe]

Not really, just reality:

- Nat Pagle got nerfed and hasn't seen play since;
- Tinkmaster got nerfed and hasn't seen play since;
- Buzzard got nerfed and hasn't seen play since;
- Undertaker got nerfed and hasn't seen play since.

In unplayable I meant not good in a competitive environment. You're obviously free to build whatever deck you like and if you want you can make a deck of 30 cards that no one ever uses. Won't be a good deck (there is a reason why some cards are played by the majority after all), but you are free to do whatever you like with the cards.

I see Pagle, Buzzard, and Undertaker all the time. And Tinkmaster is still viable as removal if your opponent has a single powerful minion on their side (i.e. Sylvanas, Ragnaros, Deathwing, etc.) and your side is empty (which isn't an uncommon spot to be in.)

You'd also be surprised how many "unviable" decks can work when people don't know what to expect from them. I put a Shaman deck together months ago that SHOULDN'T be a good one due to the sheer volume of overload cards, but it decimates Mech Mages pretty effectively 4/5 of the time.

[minteK917]

So Dr. Boom has been out for sometime now, still hasn't been nerfed and the end of HS did not occur.

I do miss all the "the sky is falling!" posts about it though.

Might have to do with the fact that hes in every deck now and randomly wins game even in tournaments.

[RoKPaNda]

A card being strong doesn't mean that it's overpowered or will be nerfed. From very early on in the HS beta until the point where more cards were added Ragnaros and Ysera were the late game in pretty much every deck. People screamed bloody murder about them being overpowered and yet they were never nerfed. Dr Boom is fine.

[Szarala]

Dr. Boom is -not- fine. Part of the problem is likely that "random" is too much of a budget reducer in the game in general (which is why cards like Flame Cannon are so powerful for their costs) and/or that there isn't enough budget distinction between "random" and "random enemy".

MY personal stance has always been that the best fix for Dr. Boom specifically would be for the explosions to be true random and not "random enemy".

The larger problem with the power creep Dr. Boom presents is that it dangerously pushes the game in the P2W direction that ultimately kills these types of games.

[Mokal]

Dr. boom is fine

[Mormolyce]

Not really, just reality:

- Nat Pagle got nerfed and hasn't seen play since;
- Tinkmaster got nerfed and hasn't seen play since;
- Buzzard got nerfed and hasn't seen play since;
- Undertaker got nerfed and hasn't seen play since.

Besides, Dr. Boom isn't my favourite card, I just don't want to see more cards become unplayable just because the mob is crying "nerf!". Thankfully the design team seems to be more careful this time and isn't rushing in to nerf the card as soon as people cry about it.

It's actually funny when you think about it. Why cry "nerf!" about a card that anyone can use? It's not like it's a class specific card that is unfairly giving class X an advantadge over other classes. Kind of reminds me of Mass Effect Online mode, where people played against AI, so everyone had access to the same weapons/classes/powers and these were not used against themselves, but that didn't stop some people crying for nerfs over certain weapons/powers.

Because a card that almost every deck runs is bad design. It makes the game boring and decks more homogeneous, and relegates less OP cards to the background. It's the same in any game, if you have X of something and one is clearly better than the others, everyone uses that one, and the remaining X-1 are simply "bad" - less game variety - bad design.

Thaurissan also needs a nerf. Same reason.

Also:

Undertaker - false, it's still in some decks. "In some decks" is the design goal for a card in HS.
Nat Pagle - it's rarely used, but that's partly because people are allergic to RNG and partly because this kind of card should be rare.
Buzzard - you could argue it was overnerfed, but really the main problem is that Hunters are so OP that they didn't even need it and quite easily swapped it out for even more retarded no-skill face damage and were fine. That nerf actually failed to address the real problem.
Tinkmaster - can't comment, I don't remember a time when that was a big deal.

And just how many 1-2 mana removals are there in the game? I cannot say from the top of my head but my first thought is a lot. Heck, you didn't even need to remove it, but simply silence it.

You think it makes sense to have to blow silences or hard removal on a 1 mana card? That's the whole point, you used your Undertaker to bait out those things so that later you could play big cards and they'd have no response. There is a limit to how much removal/silence you can put into a deck and remain viable.

Only real exception to that would be maybe control warrior, which runs a buttload of removal.

You cannot look at these things in isolation. Undertaker was balls out OP and needed to be nerfed.

And, as I said, the only real problem with the undertaker was when played in the hunter, which suggests the problem was more with the class than the individual card. Played in any number of other decks, like the priest, the card was nowhere near as powerful. Good, yes, but that was the point of playing it.

It was very strong in zoo as well. The reason Hunter is so prominent is because again, that's just one of many OP things about face Hunter.

Except that is precisely what tends to happen. A huge number of cards have been rendered unplayable in competitive play because they were nerfed.

No longer mandatory =/= unplayable.

[AeneasBK]

Can't believe people are still discussing it.

Atm you make your deck with 28 cards. Then you put BGH and Dr. Boom in.

[Sarevokcz]

Can't believe people are still discussing it.

Atm you make your deck with 28 cards. Then you put BGH and Dr. Boom in.

meh, most decks that run BGH would run him regardless, since its usually their best answer to big threats anyway, you dont see mages, rogues or hunters running BGH at all and boom isnt played in all decks either even if hes popular, but so is sylvanas and at their times rag or carine, too. Boom is fine as long as BGH is what it is, the game already lacks big cards, that can reliably contest the board against faster decks and not be decimated by massive tempo swing from BGH, no reason to nerf the one that actually works

[Deleted]

You think it makes sense to have to blow silences or hard removal on a 1 mana card?

Considering the huge tempo loss it is, absolutely.

That's the whole point, you used your Undertaker to bait out those things so that later you could play big cards and they'd have no response. There is a limit to how much removal/silence you can put into a deck and remain viable.

Aye, but it's not limited to just one, and undertaker was never, ever a "bait."

A hunter could still completely wreck you, even if you removed the undertaker, but that's just because the class is simply broken. In any other deck undertaker was the whole focus of the deck, and removing it removed the primary win condition.

It was very strong in zoo as well. The reason Hunter is so prominent is because again, that's just one of many OP things about face Hunter.

Sure but it was a lot more susceptible to counters in zoo than it was in hunter. Strong yes but a lot more manageable, and it only became more manageable as you spread out to look at other undertaker decks, which is my point; hunters were the real problem and nerfing the undertaker was just the quick, dirty solution.

[Simulacrum]

A card being strong doesn't mean that it's overpowered or will be nerfed. From very early on in the HS beta until the point where more cards were added Ragnaros and Ysera were the late game in pretty much every deck. People screamed bloody murder about them being overpowered and yet they were never nerfed. Dr Boom is fine.

There's a difference between "strong" and "overpowered" and boom is definitely overpowered.

He's ran in almost literally every deck archetype for that very reason. He's stronger than most 9 drops at 7 mana. The only card people play that doesn't go less than 1:1 for him is... himself. In fact, it's hard to imagine any card that could 1:1 him, besides himself. Even twisting nether still makes you take 2-8 damage. Maybe onyxia on an empty board... or mind control, and even there the remaining boom bots alone have a chance of killing the MC'd dr.

[Deleted]

I see Pagle, Buzzard, and Undertaker all the time. And Tinkmaster is still viable as removal if your opponent has a single powerful minion on their side (i.e. Sylvanas, Ragnaros, Deathwing, etc.) and your side is empty (which isn't an uncommon spot to be in.)

You'd also be surprised how many "unviable" decks can work when people don't know what to expect from them. I put a Shaman deck together months ago that SHOULDN'T be a good one due to the sheer volume of overload cards, but it decimates Mech Mages pretty effectively 4/5 of the time.

For you to see Buzzard, Pagle, Undertaker all the time you must be playing between rank 16-20 because those are the only ranks where you see people play these type of cards. The further you go down the ladder the more efficient decks people are using and it's no surprise these cards don't have any place in those decks.

About certain "unviable" decks working, you explained it yourself: they are so out of the meta that people aren't expecting them. That doesn't mean they are good, they will be less consistent and the more people know the deck the worse your win rate will become and that's why they aren't considered "viable" as the other decks in the meta. It's no surprise really, people want to win and to win they play the best decks with the best cards and those are usually the decks played by the high rank legendary streamers that play HS for a living. Who better to know which card is best than someone that tests the cards in hundreds of matches, at a very high level every day?

[shammypie]

There's a difference between "strong" and "overpowered" and boom is definitely overpowered.

He's ran in almost literally every deck archetype for that very reason. He's stronger than most 9 drops at 7 mana. The only card people play that doesn't go less than 1:1 for him is... himself. In fact, it's hard to imagine any card that could 1:1 him, besides himself. Even twisting nether still makes you take 2-8 damage. Maybe onyxia on an empty board... or mind control, and even there the remaining boom bots alone have a chance of killing the MC'd dr.

neptulon and perfect rng geddon could 1v1 him.

[Deleted]

I don't fully get this, if everyone is running Dr Boom, and Everyone is countering that by running BGH in their decks, wouldn't it make sense to run more 7+ attack creatures instead of less, just to bait the removal / BGH on something else then Dr Boom if you don't want your Dr Boom get insta killed, or just bait it with Dr Boom, if you want to protect other high mana creatures. Also BGH was a very common card at various stages of the meta even before GvG or Naxx. I think as soon as stuff like Handlock, Control Warrior and Ramp druid started popping up, BGH always has had value and was definately not terrible to run.

I was thinking exactly the same and never really got people that don't play any 7+ atk minions because of BGH. Some people even count for the new BRM shaman minion to not roll 7 attack cue of BGH. I would very much like an opponent to waste his BGH on my shitty 4-drop

[Solmyr13]

Can't believe people are still discussing it.

Atm you make your deck with 28 cards. Then you put BGH and Dr. Boom in.

I can say the same thing.

Atm the you make your deck with 28 cards. Then you put Sludge Belchers in.

See how it doesn't matter? The fact remains there will ALWAYS be cards that are better than others; every single card game ever made has that. The difference is you don't see Dr. Boom on turn 7 and hit menu and click concede. There were previous examples like an undertaker turn 1 against hunter and you had no removal that you might as well just click the concede button.

[Ryme]

It would be nice if the bombs could go anywhere, this at least opens the opportunity for a chance at getting a clean 1 for 1 trade on him.

My biggest problem with Dr. Boom isn't actually Dr. Boom, it's the effect it's had on the game where 6 attack is generally better than 7+.