1. #1

    Debating classes, help me out

    Right now I main a windwalker monk. I do not pvp at all, and it is used exclusively for PVE. I'm 7/7 and 7/10m and Maidens will probably die soon, and I also do a lot of cmodes.

    I am going to pick up a second class/spec for challenge modes and casual heroic raiding here and there, and I'm debating between a rogue and an enhammy. I'm not super concerned with numbers, I think I'll be able to be competitive with either of them once I've gotten a grasp for the specs.

    Obviously there are more rogue specs, which is appealing because it'll give me the opportunity to play a different spec if I don't like one, whereas I know I hate playing ranged and will not play ele or resto if I pick up the shammy.

    I don't know much about the various rogue specs in terms of playstyle to be honest. I also don't know too much about their raid utility, other then that they're good at surviving shit (which I like a lot on my monk with ToK, DM, and zen med).

    How do you like the various specs? Are they generally in a good place rotationally, or do they feel choppy and disjointed, forcing you to make awkward choices? I'd love to hear some people sell me on what they like about rogues (and which spec they're playing) and whats awesome about them. I'll probably be starting with combat if I pick up a rogue, simply because it seems to have the best burst AoE from the numbers I've looked at and thats what cmodes are all about, but if you recommend a different spec I'm all ears.

  2. #2
    Rogue is the only class I've played (not counting a small stint with free boosted WW monk during end of MoP) so I don't really have much to compare with, but I like it. Assassination is kinda like keeping a bunch of plates spinning, while Subtlety is about spinning two plates, but you're on a unicycle. Combat is just simple spam to cleave down stuff. Are there awkward choices? Eh, not really? There's almost always a pretty clear answer with each of the specs.

    I really enjoy Subtlety mainly because you get to both spam and wait, albeit being raised on late MoP Combat makes it kinda hard to be patient. It's really satisfying when everything goes right. I would play Subtlety for every fight in BRF, but it's not like Combat is bad. I personally have fun mashing out every GCD during Adrenaline Rush+Bloodlust.

    All Rogues have for utility is Smoke Bomb, which isn't worth all that much these days. My raid barely calls for it if at all, but it might be a thing when we progress into the latter third of the mythic bosses. A neat thing both another guild Rogue and I do for mythic Kromog is we both opt out of getting grabbed by hands and Shadowstep down when we get flung into the air so there's less people to break out.
    Last edited by Kaite; 2015-04-26 at 05:42 PM.

  3. #3
    I like to compare sub rogue to a demo lock. When you're in metamorphosis, all of your spells change, and you have a different rotation. When a sub rogue uses shadow dance, all his spells are stealth spells (except the finishers). The rogue also does a considerable amount more damage during shadow dance.

    However, sub does have some problems with rupture. Currently, we have an ability that causes rupture to advance its duration every time backstab or ambush multistrikes. This can cause rupture's original 24 seconds duration to be reduced significantly, forcing the rogue to reapply rupture during shadow dance, which is less than ideal. As gear continues to get better, this problem is exacerbated by the increasing amount of multistrike on our gear. While it does represent a significant dps increase, it is still problematic to reapply a 24 second bleed every ~10 seconds because it's about to fall off.

    Mutilate's rotation is pretty calm, for the most part. There is a fair amount of down time, and in order to do optimal dps there will be times where you can cast an ability, but you shouldn't because of your timers.

    Combat has some definite moments of glory, but bandit's guile needs a reworking, and energy regeneration under blade flurry feels pretty slow. Combat's single target dps lacks quite a bit, especially since most sub/combat rogue gear 100% multistrike and combat's main stat for ST is haste (combat's best aoe stat is multistrike).

    If you don't care about numbers, then go mutilate for ST, combat for AOE.

    As for utility, you mentioned our ability to soak a lot of damage. You're absolutely correct, but we must be correctly glyphed and/or talented for it. Feint can be permanently up (at a significant dps loss), and so can burst of speed (at a further dps loss). This is really good for kiting things like the siege on blackhand. We also have cloak of shadows which allows us to completely ignore magic damage. You can also glyph it to take 40% reduced physical damage, which will stack multiplicatively with feint/elusiveness. Then you can soak double MFD on blackhand, and keep feint up to take less damage than a plate wearer would for the duration of the dot.

    There's also smoke bomb which has been able to ignore things like crystal barrage on Tectus, etc.

    If you must be absolutely 100% optimal, then go sub for ST, combat for AOE.
    Last edited by Athonel; 2015-04-27 at 03:37 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Athonel View Post
    This can cause rupture's original 24 seconds duration to be reduced significantly, forcing the rogue to reapply rupture during shadow dance, which is less than ideal.
    Clearing up some misleading wording: Refreshing Rupture if it will fall off during Find Weakness is the ideal, otherwise you would not be doing it. Now, is Twist the Blade a fun/interesting/fulfilling mechanic? Opinions will differ. Will the best Rogues work with it? Yes, because that's how you reach ideal DPS.
    Last edited by Kaite; 2015-04-27 at 03:12 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaite View Post
    Clearing up some misleading wording: Refreshing Rupture if it will fall off during Find Weakness is the ideal, otherwise you would not be doing it. Now, is Twist the Blade a fun/interesting/fulfilling mechanic? Opinions will differ. Will the best Rogues work with it? Yes, because that's how you reach ideal DPS.
    Yeah, you definitely want to keep it up, but I would rather eviscerate during FW than rupture.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Athonel View Post
    Yeah, you definitely want to keep it up, but I would rather eviscerate during FW than rupture.
    That's just the perfectionist mentality talking. Sure, in an ideal scenario you'd want to only evis during find weakness for maximum dps, but if you're forced to refresh rupture because of multistrike it just means you've done that much more damage. What's the expression... you want to have your cake and eat it too.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyAccuracy View Post
    That's just the perfectionist mentality talking.
    I'm a little bit confused with this statement. I play a rogue. Rogues have three specs that deal damage, therefore the primary function of a rogue is to do damage. If that is my only goal when I play the rogue, then logic dictates that I would want to play it to the best of my abilities.

    Letting rupture drop is a loss in DPS. Therefore, I will reapply rupture when it is necessary. If that happens to be during a burn phase where I prefer to be spamming ambush and eviscerate *because they are increased by the debuff that is applied with ambush, but rupture is not* then I will still do it, but it is not optimal.

    If that makes me a perfectionist, then I am a perfectionist. Is that a bad thing? No. I am also a classically trained musician (trumpet, primarily orchestral), where being as close to perfect as possible is the way I earn my living. Does that make me a perfectionist? Yeah, probably.

    Sorry that I'm trying to be as good at this game as I can be.

  8. #8
    If you are a mythic WW monk, you might find rogues a bit boring. We have 3 specs, yes, but none of them have nearly as many abilities as WW does. But maybe that's what you're after?

    In my abbreviated opinion:

    Sub: Like a BM Hunter with daggers. Short, bursty cooldowns.
    Combat: Painfully simple rotation with a very slowly generating damage buff.
    Assassination: Seems simple on the surface, but really rewards patient, thoughtful use of abilities

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Athonel View Post
    I'm a little bit confused with this statement. I play a rogue. Rogues have three specs that deal damage, therefore the primary function of a rogue is to do damage. If that is my only goal when I play the rogue, then logic dictates that I would want to play it to the best of my abilities.

    Letting rupture drop is a loss in DPS. Therefore, I will reapply rupture when it is necessary. If that happens to be during a burn phase where I prefer to be spamming ambush and eviscerate *because they are increased by the debuff that is applied with ambush, but rupture is not* then I will still do it, but it is not optimal.

    If that makes me a perfectionist, then I am a perfectionist. Is that a bad thing? No. I am also a classically trained musician (trumpet, primarily orchestral), where being as close to perfect as possible is the way I earn my living. Does that make me a perfectionist? Yeah, probably.

    Sorry that I'm trying to be as good at this game as I can be.
    My point was that you're not really losing dps when you are forced to refresh rupture during find weakness. The fact that you're forced to do so means that you procced a lot and did a lot of damage. I guess I just like to look at the full half of the glass.

  10. #10
    Rogue survivability is crap. Play enhammy for reincarnation and better self heals.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Joric View Post
    Rogue survivability is crap. Play enhammy for reincarnation and better self heals.
    not sure if trolling or not, but being dead and then ressing (on a 30 min CD?) does not count as survivability in my book

    being almost dead on a 90 second cooldown and then not realy being dead does.

    that being said; dont think counting on both abilities to get a boss down should be a viable strategy
    Last edited by mmoced381f817d; 2015-05-01 at 11:06 AM.

  12. #12
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joric View Post
    Rogue survivability is crap. Play enhammy for reincarnation and better self heals.
    Must have forgot about cloak of immunity, feint, and vanish, rogues never die

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