Raiders: Dual Spec Vs. Single Spec

[L3fty]

Hi MMO

This is a conundrum (that word though) my guild has been facing since as long as I can recall. Just for general info - we are currently raiding 2x p/w for a total of 7 hrs. We ended HM at 5/7[M] and are currently 6/10[M] in BRF. But, there is something that really grinds my gears. That makes me twitch a little.It's players that point blank refuse to fulfill another role. I'm talking purely about hybrids here.

Out of our 24 man roster we can only rely on 2-3 players that are willing to change roles as the raid requires. The rest are a mix of solid players but they provide zero flexibility. The main problem is that particularly on 'farm' we have at times struggled to make the raids efficient and even had to cancel one recently as we had no one willing to go tank. This all results in stupidity such as running 5 healers on Kagraz and Beastlord. It's a real shame that within our raid at least, people seem less and less willing to put their necks on the line and genuinely help the guild. I'm wondering if this is just a localised problem or if anyone else is noticing a genuine lack of off spec viability.

It seems strange to me. Some raids have been saved from cancellation when one of our more understanding players has accepted going to tank/dps /heal but this is rare and part of the issue is the guys that show zero interest in fulfilling another role are often our 'best'. This makes me doubt that it's a skill issue and more of an immature toys out of the pram issue.

We have:

-a Boomy with resto Off-Spec that doesn't heal.
-a Fury warrior with Prot Off-spec that doesn't tank.
-a Disc priest with Shadow Off-spec that doesn't dps.

Basically, how should I go about this? Currently I'm really torn between:

+Accept that players play for themselves and have every right to play what they want

OR

+Demand that they gear their Off-Spec and are ready to change roles if required.

[Deja Thoris]

It depends on how you value progress versus "fun". We have a healer that simply hates dps'ing. Shes done it before and is good at it but its not what she enjoys. Sure, she'd do it to prevent a raid cancellation but she doesn't ever want to be in the "Ok, this fight needs one less healer you dps it" boat.

I sympathize with both sides and theres no easy work around, having a big roster to compensate for this is damn hard.

I wouldn't say its necessarily immature, not wanting to log in for 3+ hours to do something you don't enjoy isn't immature.

[Frostweaver]

If you are hardcore progression guild dual spec is not only something you would like everyone having but rather a something they need to have. Now if you are not that then there's nothing you can do to force people with no hardcore mindset to see reason and logic why they should do it and just replace them as you see fit on fights with ppl that have valid spec...

[Manabomb]

When I go to join a guild, regardless of the setting (casual raiding, hardcore heroic raiding, mythic progression, ect), the spec I join as is the spec I'm going to play. End of discussion. But, that's me. There are other players that are far more flexible, but I won't sit there are try to argue with someone over a video game over what offspec I should be running to help the guild.

Honestly, if I was in your shoes, I would focus on trying to find reliable raiders that want to raid with the spec they signed up for. There is -nothing- worse than someone that wants to switch specs to something they prefer mid-tier or mid-expansion, or a "druid player" (swaps between 4 specs every other patch because reasons. Had someone do this all of MoP, just. Fuck that.)

[CobraCommander]

When I go to join a guild, regardless of the setting (casual raiding, hardcore heroic raiding, mythic progression, ect), the spec I join as is the spec I'm going to play. End of discussion. But, that's me. Honestly, if I was in your shoes, I would focus on trying to find reliable raiders that want to raid with the spec they signed up for. There is -nothing- worse than someone that wants to switch specs to something they prefer mid-tier or mid-expansion, or a "druid player" (swaps between 4 specs every other patch because reasons. Had someone do this all of MoP, just. Fuck that.)

I paraphrased you a little, but this is really the most practical mindset to have. When I first as recruited to raid (25M) I wanted to use my priest, but they needed an elemental shaman. I really didn't want to, but after a while I understood that the role I played, though not the highest DPS added with the fact I wasn't healing I became one of the top geared shaman on the server and had fun. Eventually I was allowed to use both my priest and shaman for healing but it wasn't my goal anymore to do that. I was just glad I could help.

Sticking to one spec/role is due to optimizing performance. Not everyone has time to be perfect in two roles for all fights all the time. As Manabomb stated instead of enforcing multi-role skill, just find those who excel. Ironically it may also be a kick in the ass for those who are being stubborn.

....now this is all moot if you are going for realm firsts.

[Soob]

When I go to join a guild, regardless of the setting (casual raiding, hardcore heroic raiding, mythic progression, ect), the spec I join as is the spec I'm going to play. End of discussion. But, that's me. There are other players that are far more flexible, but I won't sit there are try to argue with someone over a video game over what offspec I should be running to help the guild.

^this
I'm one of the flexible players. I have a pally for dps/heal and a monk for dps/tank and I can do it because it's fun to me to play these roles and I actually can play them. If something is missing, I change my specc or the character. But there are some people who can't play their second spec in raid. It's enough for questing but nothing more.

[MrExcelion]

It's one of those things you work to change over time by recruiting players that are capable of spec-switching. Really don't need too many players like that though.

[ComputerNerd]

If that switching is a requirement then that should be something to be discussed during recruitment.
If you are recruiting players who are not fully aware of what is expected of them, then I would suggest there is a lack clear and concise communication as to your expectations.

[Deleted]

I'm a tank and I'd been a single spec tank for the longest time, but recently over the last 2-3 months I took it upon myself to learn to play feral, as well as gear for it and so on. Its not really ever come close to being required ever, but its been a lot of fun and I enjoyed the learning experience, honestly melee was fun to play as. Don't think I can play as ranged, all the moving and mechanics seem harsher.

[Deleted]

I think the most common approach to people not wanting to play their offspec is increasing your raiding roster.
So instead of 5healing beastlord, you sit out the disc priest and bring in a dps instead.
You can then invite the disc again once there is use for him.

[hulkgor]

Players play the spec they want. This is a game after all, right?

[kamuimac]

if you guild is not hardcore chasing server ranks one there is no reason whatsoever to force people to play spec they just dont enjoy cause officers were to lazy to recruit enough to cover bench. some people just do not enjoy dps or healing or tanking and there is no reason to force them to do it just cause you miss 1 or 2 people whom you can pug in 10 seconds while using finder tool.

other thing its realy not fun to swap to 15-20 itlv lower offspec just cause officers were lazy on recuiting.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the most common approach to people not wanting to play their offspec is increasing your raiding roster.
So instead of 5healing beastlord, you sit out the disc priest and bring in a dps instead.
You can then invite the disc again once there is use for him.

and by that you meant keep disc in while siting out 2 other healers due to how OP discs are atm

[Deleted]

The best option is to agree beforehand which players are willing to play two roles, so you don't get the problem in the first place. Then help those people with gearing their offspecs with whatever loot system you use. For example give them priority on offspec loot over people who aren't willing to use an offspec in raids or whatever is appropriate for your loot system. A healthy roster does need either people willing to play multiple specs or alternatively a big bench.

Out of curiosity, are you also upset at players with a single role like rogues and mages who aren't willing to switch between specs based on what is best for the fight? For example switching between aoe and single target specs.

[Ferocity]

Dual spec was introduced, because raid specs were very inefficient outside raiding, PvP specs were very inefficient outside PvP, effficient farming had their own specs and it costed a lot of gold to switch back and forth.

Second spec wasn't supposed to be used in same environment as first spec. Forcing people to play off-specs in raid is laughable.

[L3fty]

Thanks for the feedback guys. We are by no means seeking server bests but I would still like for more of our roster to be flexible. Given how cut throat recruitment is on our server is I think I prefer not to alienate the players we do have so will most likely just mull this over. It's frustrating from an organisational standpoint but is not a big enough problem to start demanding they can fulfill multiple roles.

The best option is to agree beforehand which players are willing to play two roles, so you don't get the problem in the first place. Then help those people with gearing their offspecs with whatever loot system you use. For example give them priority on offspec loot over people who aren't willing to use an offspec in raids or whatever is appropriate for your loot system. A healthy roster does need either people willing to play multiple specs or alternatively a big bench.

Out of curiosity, are you also upset at players with a single role like rogues and mages who aren't willing to switch between specs based on what is best for the fight? For example switching between aoe and single target specs.

All very good points, thanks for your wisdom.

In answer to the question - yes I am. I would expect a pure DPS class to max their DPS on an encounter-by-encounter basis. We are not in the elite guilds but I care enough about ranking to only want DPS in the raid team that want to push big numbers and to max our chance of killing a boss. If you are a fire mage that doesn't want to go arcane - my view is tough shit. More to the point, such players that would be so innately stubborn as to only play one DPS spec would imo not be cut out for Mythic. Certainly I facepalm at the thought of dragging such a player through the easier bosses only to hit a wall and have them refuse to optimise their performance. To be fair, i'm yet to meet a DPS that prefers to play what is comfortable as opposed to what gives them the biggest numbers.

[ddsad2212]

Honestly I can understand how they feel in some respect. I know when ever I have to go tank on my dk I feel my play is rather sub par because I only raid during raid times and thus I never really practice the spec out side of that so it's no where near as good as my dps spec. That been said I'll still do it if asked no question. I'd ask them one at a time privately, if they're willing to play their off spec and any more make sure you agree with players what specs they'll be expected to play before joining the guild.

[Deleted]

Players play the spec they want. This is a game after all, right?

Some players comprehend it as more than a game. They make sacrifices for their guild, they play classes they dont even enjoy, "for guilds good". They consider guild as a family, guildies as friends.
Others dont. Others use guilds as tools and guilds use them as tools. They are not attached to guilds, they logon, raid and logoff. They dont play for social bonds, just kills and loot.

[Deleted]

Some players comprehend it as more than a game. They make sacrifices for their guild, they play classes they dont even enjoy, "for guilds good". They consider guild as a family, guildies as friends.
Others dont. Others use guilds as tools and guilds use them as tools. They are not attached to guilds, they logon, raid and logoff. They dont play for social bonds, just kills and loot.

This guy got it right.
You'll find players that play the game to achiev a high world rank. That means they'll do what is required to earn that rank.
You'll also find players that play the game because they enjoy playing it with their friends, and their main goal is to have fun while raiding, that means they want to play the role the find fun.

I play in pwnanza (15#) personaly I would change whatever would be required to achiev a better position for our guild, but I got a few friends that's also playing wow on a much different level, that doesn't feel the same way about raiding. To them, raiding is just something you can do with your friends if you like.

[kamuimac]

A If you are a fire mage that doesn't want to go arcane - my view is tough shit.

this is proving that you try very hard to be elitest asshole without decent progress to back up such idiuotic claims - my friend had similiar experience lately - hes fire mage he always has been fire mage and for years is pushing 95 + percentile in that spec - yet lately one 9/10 M guild plainly rejected his application because he didnt want to swap to arcane for certain fight even though he hates arcane - at the end of day it was their loss - they are still stuck on blackhand progress while my friend is happy farming 10/10 M in his fire spec and has no problem to push decent ranks.

Shitty player in BiS spec will never outperform amazing player in 2nd or 2rd best but pushed to its limit. only difference are bosses where some specs are just plain broken - aka 1.5-2mln dps locks on protectors in siege -_-

[Deleted]

this is proving that you try very hard to be elitest asshole without decent progress to back up such idiuotic claims - my friend had similiar experience lately - hes fire mage he always has been fire mage and for years is pushing 95 + percentile in that spec - yet lately one 9/10 M guild plainly rejected his application because he didnt want to swap to arcane for certain fight even though he hates arcane - at the end of day it was their loss - they are still stuck on blackhand progress while my friend is happy farming 10/10 M in his fire spec and has no problem to push decent ranks.

Shitty player in BiS spec will never outperform amazing player in 2nd or 2rd best but pushed to its limit. only difference are bosses where some specs are just plain broken - aka 1.5-2mln dps locks on protectors in siege -_-

Ranks doesn't equal a good player.
On blast furnace progress you'd some mages going arcane, despite that fight is screaming for fire because of the huge cleave.
I must agree with l3fty here, if you refuse to play the best spec for a certain fight as a mage, you shouldn't expect to get any decent progress done.
Pushing ranks means fuck all on progress, you need the right things to die in time, whoring won't get you anywhere.