Why ppls who play sub spec atm think...

[Deleted]

Or maybe it is the other way around?
People who don't play sub and didn't even tried it because they think it mega hard to play it (when it's not) and thus feel "diminished" about that.
I don't wan't to generalize but i have seen 2 interesting things on this forum lately:

1) ppl playing sub encouraging others to try and advising not to give any thoughts on the illusion of difficulty this spec have
2) the threads were such arrogance is shown by sub players are in fact began by judgements from assa or combat players.


So yes rogues that have experience on fights will tell you that sub is better on most fight for progression if you want to give all you have for your raid (and doing this or not depends on the objectives of your guild, there is no right or wrong answer). That doesn't mean you have to di it, but if ppl ask advices and then call the ppl arrogants because they answer truthfully but didn't like the answer, that's not a pb from sub players. I don't say that everything is black or white but everybody has to watch how he acts on these threads, not sub players only, because other players are not necessarily saints.

And to add a little something, sub is a spec great for progression but not because of it's generally dps. We could be with assa doing a little bit more ST damage than sub, sub would still be better than assa on some fights because of the tools it provides.

[daspels]

Because assassination has been mindnumbingly boring since early WotLK, and it's nice to see a spec that takes more than 2 brain cells to play.

I dont really get why ppl keep overexaggerating how "easy and boring" assassination is. As a 9/10 mythic raiding rogue I must say that trying to keep 100% uptime on the envenombuff can be just as hard as playing optimal sub. Imo who ever says something different rarly know how to play assassination to its fullest potential. Energymanagement and knowing when to get those vanish CP can be tricky.

[Saulburn]

I personally don't understand why people would play a spec that deals less damages overall than another and be fine with it (even proud of it reading some assassination comments, like they're not a mainstream-sub-tryhard-rogue or something)

If you're willing to play a spec for the fun of it or because you're comfortable with it, that's fine, it's your life, but don't brag about how legit it is, because it's not at the moment. You're not doing as much as DPS as you should, which is, to my opinion, a lack of respect towards your co-raiders, provided they don't have the same attitude.

I guess it's just a question of PvE mindset and raiding objectives, if you're not willing to 100% your class from comfort, laziness or selfishness (because let's be honest, that's what it is), it's up to you and your guild expectations, but don't expect praises for downgrading your DPS potential in a raiding perspective, and be perfectly OK with it

With this mentality everyone should change to the spec AND CLASS that does more damage at that moment. Add to it that for anyone to change spec effectively one has to change gear (sometimes a lot of it) enchants and gems and food. So... change char because, you know, ferals do more dmg now.

Mwahahahahaaaaa!

[overdose]

I dont really get why ppl keep overexaggerating how "easy and boring" assassination is. As a 9/10 mythic raiding rogue I must say that trying to keep 100% uptime on the envenombuff can be just as hard as playing optimal sub. Imo who ever says something different rarly know how to play assassination to its fullest potential. Energymanagement and knowing when to get those vanish CP can be tricky.

If it's just as hard to play optimal than why not go for the higher dps of the two specs? Another problem with assassination is that 100% uptime of yours is only slightly more dps than say 70% uptime, unlike sub where lower uptimes is much more punishing. All else being equal, if you're going to play a "hard" spec, why not go for the one that will provide the most benefit to you and your guild?

I play sub, because its currently our highest dps spec. If ass was still our best performing spec I would be playing that. I am however happy that it isnt because I do find it boring.

[bison91]

dunno. i play combat since 2005. and cant live without it...but sub and ass (xD) become more fun..combat lost it touch.

[Deleted]

The only reason why people play sub is cause it produces better numbers over assassination. If sin would be better on single target people will switch over to assassination. Simple as that.

[daspels]

If it's just as hard to play optimal than why not go for the higher dps of the two specs? Another problem with assassination is that 100% uptime of yours is only slightly more dps than say 70% uptime, unlike sub where lower uptimes is much more punishing. All else being equal, if you're going to play a "hard" spec, why not go for the one that will provide the most benefit to you and your guild?

I play sub, because its currently our highest dps spec. If ass was still our best performing spec I would be playing that. I am however happy that it isnt because I do find it boring.

Thats not what im talking about. I agree with you. My point being: Assassination isnt as easy as so many ppl in these forums are complaining about.

[Xar226]

The average player (as opposed to the the top shelf players for whom this actually matters) can pretty much play any of the three specs and not notice a whole lot of difference in their damage output, with obvious exceptions such as combat on large trash pulls.

I don't know. I don't consider myself to be a great player (I'm in a super casual guild that raids 3 hours 1 day per week), but on a single-target fight I already put out about 10% more DPS with 675/655 daggers as Sub than I do with 685/675 mace/dagger as Combat. That's pretty much the top end of what the sims say should be the difference. (That said, I am enchanted more for Sub than Combat so that will account for part of the difference.)

But...

I'm [. . .] just saying it really doesn't matter enough for people to feel obligated to play that spec. In most competent casual guilds, your raid awareness will contribute more to your being invited and retained than your choice of spec.

I couldn't agree more with this. I think a 10% difference is within the acceptable range where you should just play what you want, at least for non-hardcore guilds. And more importantly, it's hard to argue that sub isn't harder than the other specs (even if it's only a little and none of them should properly be described as "hard") -- meaning that if you're more comfortable playing something like assassination, being sub probably won't increase your DPS anyway. Playing assassination well may very well outperform making mistakes in sub.

Personally I play sub for two reasons: 1) I legitimately like the spec, I feel really engaged in its playstyle and 2) I feel like I can play whichever spec I want competently, so the extra DPS potential on a spec I like is awesome. I won't criticize people who choose to play Assassination.

If Assassination was the top ST spec tomorrow, would I play it? Yeah, probably. I also enjoy switching specs around, keeps it fresh for me during an expansion.

[overdose]

Thats not what im talking about. I agree with you. My point being: Assassination isnt as easy as so many ppl in these forums are complaining about.

You may have misunderstood what I wrote. I wasn't saying that assassination is hard, the point I was getting at is why play the spec that rewards less for effort put in assuming they are the same difficulty.

I actually think assassination is extremely easy to play, with intricacies that are also easy to master. Sub, on the other hand is also easy to play, but only after you pass the "skill floor", which just takes a little bit of practice.

As some have pointed out in this thread, it's perfectly fine to play whatever spec you enjoy most, just don't preach the delusion that it is a difficult spec. This goes for sub aswell, I believe that some people become intimidated by the spec from what they read about it being "hard" and end up not trying it at all. This is a shame as I find sub to be the most engaging, and most fun rogue spec to play.

[kilj]

Pretty much this. Sub wasn't even really viable until MOP, and even then the extra effort didn't yield any measurable gain. Aldrianna, the well known Elitist Jerks theorycrafter, once wrote in his blog that he refused to play sub because he wasn't a "masochist".

Now this "debate" is really just getting kind of silly. The average player (as opposed to the the top shelf players for whom this actually matters) can pretty much play any of the three specs and not notice a whole lot of difference in their damage output, with obvious exceptions such as combat on large trash pulls.

I'm not denying that that Sub sims better, just saying it really doesn't matter enough for people to feel obligated to play that spec. In most competent casual guilds, your raid awareness will contribute more to your being invited and retained than your choice of spec.

This made me laugh.... Sub was very viable in cata with the legendaries

[Smaxy]

I have never seen a single person on these forums patronising an Assassination player. The truth is more like: (many) Sub lovers dislike Mutilate because it's incredibly simple, Mutilate lover gets angry and confuses disliking something with condescending towards someone. There's definitely some kind of inferiority complex going on.

Not saying this applies to all cases but to many I have witnessed.

Yep, this is exactly what I see too.

[Shyrshadi]

The only reason why people play sub is cause it produces better numbers over assassination. If sin would be better on single target people will switch over to assassination. Simple as that.

While it is true that I changed to sub because I found mut lacking, I enjoy playing the spec. And while it's true that I'd go ack to mut if it did as much damage over sub as sub currently does over mut, yes I would change back for the good of the guild.

But I play sub on fights where people usually say play combat because I enjoy the spec and enjoy making it work where it isn't optimal.

[Deleted]

Unless you're progressing mythic at high levels the spec you choose to play is largely irrelevant. If you're just chilling out doing heroic level content, play the spec you enjoy most. Whether it's Assassination or Subtlety.

If you're playing at higher levels (mythic content) you should look into playing the most optimal spec for an encounter. On farm it's a bit different, if your raid comp allows it, play whatever you enjoy most. Farm is farm, gotta keep it interesting for yourself.

The people looking down on people playing Assassination this tier and saying they should play Subtlety are probably the same people who would play Subtlety when Assassination is the better spec. It's best to just ignore them. Most competent mythic raiders won't go around insulting people for the spec they play. it's the incompetent mythic raiders that will.

If you enjoy Assassination play Assassination.

I personally play the best spec that does the best damage for the encounter I am doing. Subtlety is my favourite spec for Rogue, but I'll sure as hell respec to Assassination if it's damage output is higher next tier.

Ultimately the difficulty of a spec is relative to how long you've been playing it. Rather than discussing why people shouldn't play spec X, Y, or Z. It's best if everyone helped everyone play the spec they enjoy most to the best of their ability.

[Deleted]

The people looking down on people playing Assassination this tier and saying they should play Subtlety are probably the same people who would play Subtlety when Assassination is the better spec.

I don't agree with you here. Like I mentioned before, I got lots of flames, well, insults because I played sub in ToT. And no, I was not arrogant I only mentioned that I played sub and that it's possible. The great assa and combat rogues just laughed at me.

I've noticed the same pattern with almost every class. Many players think that there is always only one viable spec that people are supposed to play. And when they see someone who play another spec, they assume that either this person doesn't know that it's the 'false' spec, or he/she is too bad to play the 'proper' spec.

"What, you don't play demo? lol..." after two months "I only mean it well, if you wanna do any damage, switch to destro" and after another two months "everyone plays affli!"

[Tripax]

If you are cool and pro you play sub. That seems to be how things are now @ rogue forums.

[Adoxe]

Because seeing other Rogues who play weaker specs claiming that it can be good and that there's ways to make it good makes us mad. You're hurting your own raid team if you're not putting in the effort to learn the spec that is statistically the best, especially when we're a pure DPS class, you should know all 3 specs by heart. If you're casual then w/e but don't come and talk shit because you don't like Sub or suck at playing it.

[Deleted]

This made me laugh.... Sub was very viable in cata with the legendaries

There just was not enough sub friendly encounters in dragon soul. I was running sub only for morchok, sham lady and a spine for burst

[Athonel]

Pretty much this. Sub wasn't even really viable until MOP, and even then the extra effort didn't yield any measurable gain. Aldrianna, the well known Elitist Jerks theorycrafter, once wrote in his blog that he refused to play sub because he wasn't a "masochist".

Now this "debate" is really just getting kind of silly. The average player (as opposed to the the top shelf players for whom this actually matters) can pretty much play any of the three specs and not notice a whole lot of difference in their damage output, with obvious exceptions such as combat on large trash pulls.

I'm not denying that that Sub sims better, just saying it really doesn't matter enough for people to feel obligated to play that spec. In most competent casual guilds, your raid awareness will contribute more to your being invited and retained than your choice of spec.

Sub became viable in PVE in naxx. In fact, until the HAT bug was fixed, 3-4 sub rogues in the same group were insanely overpowered. They were doing 7-8k dps when most people were barely breaking 5k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWgoWpGeczM

Then it got fixed.

[Smaxy]

Because seeing other Rogues who play weaker specs claiming that it can be good and that there's ways to make it good makes us mad. You're hurting your own raid team if you're not putting in the effort to learn the spec that is statistically the best, especially when we're a pure DPS class, you should know all 3 specs by heart. If you're casual then w/e but don't come and talk shit because you don't like Sub or suck at playing it.

This pretty much. The whole "assassination is fine Bc it works for my 8/10 heroic guild, must work on mythic too and please stop with anyone telling me otherwise. It's so difficult and complex you just don't know" is really annoying and in the end you're hurting your raid group..if you found a mythic guild who doesn't care that you want to play suboptimally good on you, but from my experience getting 19 other people aimed at progression to be OK with you actively choosing to underperform is very unlikely to happen.

That being said, if assn is top dps spec in t18 I'll play it. Won't be happy if I do but oh well

[Gandrake]

because they are dumb as shit jarhead mongoloids?

every class has them

i mean, look at gladiators. they don't even realize that 30 players in a raid dungeon gives them enough room to pad when grouped with other good players playing specs that are actually viable which gives them power in the padding argument against a player that knows they play at a high level and does not care about parsing and does whatever it takes to win. These people do not care that their spec excels at nothing, requires a huge amount of uptime for half decent dps and takes loot from tank specs that will make better use of it.

and they play in a guild that raids 2-3x as much as your guild does and do not have 2-3x as much to show for it.

they think anyone cares that they are 20 out of 120 when there are players who are 203 out of 30k+. They always act like everyone is personally attacking them just because it is a low performance spec and it says a lot about a player to choose to play a low performing spec than play all of their specs at a high level.

And the best thing is that they think Gladiator is just so fucking hard to play. GET 2 STACKS OF US, SPAM HEROIC STRIKE

LEL NOW U KNOW HOW TO PLAY GLAD

and they constantly complain that they cannot play Fury at a competitive level. But they are going to suggest their spec is harder to play. Not that I care, it's all the same to me since I can play any Warrior spec at a high level.

People on the internet are stupid and these are the people you share the road with.