Are there differences between man and women or not?

[Deleted]

I think its the other way around. Socialisation helps in general but there will always be things you don't understand or grasp being born one way or the other

The art of tying hair into intricate patterns shall forever remain a female art.

My poor man brain cannot comprehend the complexity of it!

[Deleted]

I think its the other way around. Socialisation helps in general but there will always be things you don't understand or grasp being born one way or the other

I disagree. If biology was the predominant factor we'd literally be animals. Rutting out in the open, clobbering each other to death over food and mates. Literally our entire lives are built around things that are not natural, and yet we cope and adapt to them incredibly well. Instincts and biology will always underline things. But socialisation is to me, undoubtedly the major factor.

[Katchii]

Men and women are different on the genetic level. XX vs XY, it gets complicated with XXY and XYY etc... but you get the idea, no matter what they decide to identify themselves as, they are still different on a genetic level, and no amount of wishful thinking, surgery or drug therapy or even gene therapy is going to change that.

Someone (Tilli Mooneye) already said it quite succinctly though:

Yes, there's differences but that doesn't mean laws shouldn't be gender neutral

[jordonus]

I think its the other way around.

The current scientific consensus is exactly this. Our cultures are largely based on, and reinforce, these inherent biological differences; they aren't just plucked out of thing air and imposed on people as some would like to think. There are some quite large differences physically and mentally between males and females. It doesn't help us at all when we attempt to pretend otherwise, we should embrace and understand these. And, as was stated earlier, the law should be neutral; equal opportunity for both.

[Deleted]

The art of tying hair into intricate patterns shall forever remain a female art.

My poor man brain cannot comprehend the complexity of it!

Pregnancy, periods, sex-specific diseases, etc

- - - Updated - - -

The current scientific consensus is exactly this. Our cultures are largely based on, and reinforce, these inherent biological differences; they aren't just plucked out of thing air and imposed on people as some would like to think. There are some quite large differences physically and mentally between males and females. It doesn't help us at all when we attempt to pretend otherwise, we should embrace and understand these. And, as was stated earlier, the law should be neutral; equal opportunity for both.

Yes, and the thing is, sometimes biology causes individuals to inherit traits, patterns from the opposite sex. Socialization can try to suppres that but it'll come out at some point, for better or worse

- - - Updated - - -

I disagree. If biology was the predominant factor we'd literally be animals. Rutting out in the open, clobbering each other to death over food and mates. Literally our entire lives are built around things that are not natural, and yet we cope and adapt to them incredibly well. Instincts and biology will always underline things. But socialisation is to me, undoubtedly the major factor.

Are you saying that you can 'form' people with a biological predesposition by socialization?

[Emageht Tsoluoy]

OP didn't get "The Talk" it seems:

[jordonus]

Yes, and the thing is, sometimes biology causes individuals to inherit traits, patterns from the opposite sex. Socialization can try to suppres that but it'll come out at some point, for better or worse

I wouldn't use the word suppress. I think it's much too strong for what is happening in situations like this. These types of people (homosexuals for example) are actually a small minority. Our cultures cater to the overwhelming majority. I wouldn't say that they intentionally suppress these types of people as much as it's just trying to support the expected innate characteristics of each gender. The problem here is that gay men tend to have largely female brains while gay women tend to largely male brains; this often makes it simply a case of mistaken identity since it's hard to tell, at first glance, whether or not someone is gay until later in life (teens/adulthood). I agree that it usually comes out at some point though, and sometimes it can be bad as many people will inherently have adverse reactions to this due to instinctual defense mechanisms.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't use the word suppress. I think it's much too strong for what is happening in situations like this. These types of people (homosexuals for example) are actually a small minority. Our cultures cater to the overwhelming majority. I wouldn't say that they intentionally suppress these types of people as much as it's just trying to support the expected innate characteristics of each gender. The problem here is that gay men tend to have largely female brains while gay women tend to largely male brains; this often makes it simply a case of mistaken identity since it's hard to tell, at first glance, whether or not someone is gay until later in life (teens/adulthood). I agree that it usually comes out at some point though, and sometimes it can be bad as many people will inherently have adverse reactions to this due to instinctual defense mechanisms.

I guess it is felt as suppresion yes, not actually society doing that per sé. Although thinks like religion sometimes can position itself on a borderline suppresive approach to certain behaviour.
I wouldnt say gay men and women have brains opposite to their sex but there is part of it that reacts like a heterosexual person of the opposite sex would yes.
Trans and intersex people have shown to have brains more similair to the opposite sex, its a different thing really

[Polyxo]

There are differences in TENDENCIES. Physically, men tend to be bigger. Women tend to have a lower center of gravity, proportionally more muscle in their lower body than men and less in their upper body. Women tend to have a higher body fat percentage. However, if you look at the population as a whole, would imagine a venn diagram, with most of it overlapping.

- - - Updated - - -

There are definite differences. Physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, etc... That doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated differenetly under the law, however because of said differences, in many ways they need to be.

For example: should/would you put women in prison with men? Should women have reduced standards to become a Navy S.E.A.L.? Or should the SEALS reduce their standards so women have a chance to compete?

I'mall for equal pay for equal work, but realistically, a job shouldn't have to cater their standards for men and women. What I mean by that is that the job should dictate the standards. You want to work on a farm, or on an oil rig, or a fishing boat in Alaska, or the NBA, NFL, etc... The job needs to dictate the standard. And as thus, if a woman can hack it, then more power to them.

I would agree. However, I would also say that gender restrictions on jobs should be entirely eliminated. I'm athletic, strong and physical enough to compete with men in contact sports, but not big enough, and there aren't many men my size in the sports that have weight classes. However, eventually there will be some woman that is everything I am, and she's a foot taller. She's going to be able to keep up with elite male prospects, and she shouldn't have some artificial boundary keeping her out.

[Deleted]

Are you saying that you can 'form' people with a biological predesposition by socialization?

What I'm saying is that both biology and socialisation are important factors in our world. But most of our life involves things that have nothing to do with nature. So it seems quite clearly wrong to claim that biology is king. Biology is the root, but humans have moved far beyond it.

My issue here is that there seems to be a trend recently of using biology to excuse sexism. Of trying to explain discrimination (e.g in the different careers men and women take) by innate differences. It's a very intellectually dishonest argument used to avoid confronting social issues. And it also makes no sense - gender roles in society have changed drastically over time, so it is very blinkered to claim that our current gender roles are immutable and based purely on biology.

[jordonus]

I guess it is felt as suppresion yes, not actually society doing that per sé. Although thinks like religion sometimes can position itself on a borderline suppresive approach to certain behaviour.

I would agree that there are many organizations that are intentionally suppressing this kind of behavior.

These organizations are many centuries old (or more), they had very little understanding of homosexuality and the general causes. We have many instinctual mechanisms in place to protect the species as best as possible from dangers such as genetic defects, diseases, etc... and they largely operate on detecting differences, anything differing from the norm usually incites an adverse reaction. The people that lived back when these ideologies were created knew about homosexuals and they invented many stories to explain them; I think these fearful stories, coupled with their instincts, help to reinforce this oppressive subculture.

I would say the best way to handle raising children is to understand that most boys and girls will fall within the expected norms but to also be aware that some may not. It's okay to support their innate interests and behaviors, and if they happen to fall closer to the female spectrum as a male, or vice versa, then it's not a big deal; just support them in a different way.

I wouldnt say gay men and women have brains opposite to their sex but there is part of it that reacts like a heterosexual person of the opposite sex would yes.

The way that gay man and women think, carry themselves, the interests they have, etc... suggests that there is something more encompassing going on here. Many different portions of the brain contribute to these differences. I don't mean that they actually have brains of the opposite sex but they do have many features that are much closer to the opposite sex than their own.

Trans and intersex people have shown to have brains more similair to the opposite sex, its a different thing really

I'm not really sure what the primary differences are, biologically, between people who identify simply as homosexual and trans but I wouldn't be surprised if the differences are much more encompassing. I can agree with this.

[Deleted]

The current scientific consensus is exactly this.

Let's have a source for that please. No one is claiming (or at least I'm not), that biology has no role in our society. But I sincerely doubt that there is a scientific consensus that biology is the primary factor here. There are rarely scientific consensuses on such complex and nebulous issues.

[jordonus]

Let's have a source for that please. No one is claiming (or at least I'm not), that biology has no role in our society. But I sincerely doubt that there is a scientific consensus that biology is the primary factor here. There are rarely scientific consensuses on such complex and nebulous issues.

The scientific consensus is that males and females have quite large differences physically and mentally. Physically, it's quite obvious. Mentally, brain scans show us that males and females brains develop differently, with different emphasis placed in different areas of the brain that are responsible for different things; even blood flow is distributed differently. We can take these differences and look at how they translate in the real world: men are physically much stronger, women are more emotional and social, men dominate in systems oriented tasks, women dominate in social oriented tasks. Turns out all of the observed differences in areas of the brain between males and females translates into them excelling over the other in tasks that require those parts of the brain. There is nothing wrong with this and each of these differences has its advantages.

I never said anyone is claiming that biology has no role in society. I simply stated the fact that, scientifically, the overwhelming majority of the evidence supports the notion that it's biology first and foremost... and then conditioning in whatever wiggle room is left.

[Deleted]

The scientific consensus is that males and females have quite large differences physically and mentally. Physically, it's quite obvious. Mentally, brain scans show us that males and females brains develop differently, with different emphasis placed in different areas of the brain that are responsible for different things; even blood flow is distributed differently. We can take these differences and look at how they translate in the real world: men are physically much stronger, women are more emotional and social, men dominate in systems oriented tasks, women dominate in social oriented tasks. Turns out all of the observed differences in areas of the brain between males and females translates into them excelling over the other in tasks that require those parts of the brain. There is nothing wrong with this and each of these differences has its advantages.

I never said anyone is claiming that biology has no role in society. I simply stated the fact that, scientifically, the overwhelming majority of the evidence supports the notion that it's biology first and foremost... and then conditioning in whatever wiggle room is left.

Again - I sincerely doubt that there is any consensus over exactly how much those differences affect our society. They exist yes, but the degree to which they affect the real world is very much up for debate. Gender roles have changed considerably throughout history, it is quite simply a demonstrated fact that socialisation can have a huge impact on gender roles. I'm sure back when women were practically considered property people were saying it was in their nature to be like that.

- - - Updated - - -

In short, if what you're saying is true, gender roles - and indeed society as a whole - would be virtually immutable throughout history. They are not. So your so called "scientific consensus" is demonstrably false.

[jordonus]

But most of our life involves things that have nothing to do with nature. So it seems quite clearly wrong to claim that biology is king.

Ah yes, here is the crux of the problem. "I can't personally see how this translates to nature in any way, therefore it must have nothing to do with it." Everything we do and every thought we have are the product of the natural systems that evolved for our basic survival.

Fighting each other and predators for social dominance and survival is something males are built for, this requires confidence, aggressiveness, heightened spatial awareness, etc... The systems responsible for this stuff are always present and used for everything else. This is why men are generally more confident than women, more aggressive, better at spatial tasks, etc... This translates into things like men being the majority of leaders, making more money, better at understanding systems, being better at video games which revolve around spatial awareness and competitiveness, etc...

Birthing and caring for children requires heightened emotional awareness, a much higher sense of cohesiveness and cooperation, etc... There are many sections of the brain that are different between males and females that are responsible for this as well. And these all translate into modern day things, just like the more male-oriented traits.

These are just two examples of many complex differences that all translate into differences between the genders.

[Shiny212]

Are there differences between man and women or not? Some people are conviced that literally everything is a social construct . Even males can give birth to children if they really really want to. I think its possible maybe (in the near future) but otherwise it wouldnt work, atleast thats how i learned it from my biology teacher but it can be outdated information maybe. What do you think? Is it possible and would it be ehical / morally okay to do it if its possible in the future via surgery? Some argue that its just a social construct that its a female privilege to give birth to children and its opressive to people that identify as male. In my opiniion there are differnences between man and women in terms of body as well as behaviour (because of hormons like testosteron)

Those people are stupid, there are clear physical, hormonal and biochemical differences between men and women.

[AeneasBK]

Why the fuck this hasn't been posted I'll never know. Looks like people are being too serious.

36 years old and still relevant :O Maybe this decline into idiocy isn't anything new.

[xuros]

Yes, yes there are differences.

ROFL, that kids voice popped into my head when I read the title hahahaha.

[jordonus]

In short, if what you're saying is true, gender roles - and indeed society as a whole - would be virtually immutable throughout history. They are not. So your so called "scientific consensus" is demonstrably false.

Many cultures throughout history all have a different face, but are largely based on many of the same basic innate attributes. Just because two cultures go about achieving the same thing in different ways, does not mean that biology has anything less to do with how people act. Also, you are assuming that two different views on something cannot come from the same underlying structure.

back when women were practically considered property people were saying it was in their nature to be like that.

And the dishonesty begins.

[Deleted]

Ah yes, here is the crux of the problem. "I can't personally see how this translates to nature in any way, therefore it must have nothing to do with it. Everything we do and every thought we have are the product of the natural systems that evolved for our basic survival.

Fighting each other and predators for social dominance and survival is something males are built for, this requires confidence, aggressiveness, heightened spatial awareness, etc... The systems responsible for this stuff are always present and used for everything else. This is why men are generally more confident than women, more aggressive, better at spatial tasks, etc... This translates into things like men being the majority of leaders, making more money, better at understanding systems, being better at video games which revolve around spatial awareness and competitiveness, etc...

Birthing and caring for children requires heightened emotional awareness, a much higher sense of cohesiveness and cooperation, etc... There are many sections of the brain that are different between males and females that are responsible for this as well. And these all translate into modern day things, just like the more male-oriented traits.

These are just two examples of many complex differences that all translate into differences between the genders.

If you go back and back and back you will come down to some sort of biological explanation. It is underlying, but the surface of our society (and a good deal underneath), is socialisation. Biology is pretty much just the very bottom layer. You can build on top of that that to create something that varies a lot from the base. As demonstrated by...all of human history.

You're a perfect example of the exact problem I'm talking about. You're using faulty science to avoid having to confront sexism in society. "Men make up the majority of CEOs not because of millenia of misogyny, but because women are biologically inferior." Natch.